Ryan Coyle is soundly trounced by his own strawman.
Once again, from the same YouTube video thread. This was simply too precious. I stand amused and bemused. There’s very little content here of value, other than as a pristine example of what a feminist’s arguments looks like when addressing an egalitarian and a men’s rights activist.
Do some MRA’s come across a jerks? Sure do. And so do some feminists.
There is no good reason to read this post other than to witness something bizarre. It was not unlike watching someone smash his thumb with a hammer, and then, as an act of revenge against the thumb for feeling pain, repeatedly and with increasing fervour smashing it harder and harder in a frothed up frenzy of misplaced loathing.
Ladies and Gentlemen, I present Ryan Coyle.
PS: If I this post’s introductory paragraph starts off whiffing of snark, it’s that it was added after the full reply was written. Additional note: edited for clarity and as a writing exercise. The points remain untouched and unmodified, without addition or subtraction.
tl;dr? Your post is an endless series of claims assigned to me that I have never made. You are having a wicked battle with a ferocious army of straw men of your own making. I respond to each one of your claims, and demonstrate that they are factually incorrect. And I do it in tiny morsels, using small words for your ease of understanding.
“God you Men’s Rights Activists are ridiculous. And that’s mainly because male rights and female rights are not mutually exclusive,”
Men and women’s rights are not mutually exclusive. Please point where I’ve stated differently.
“but you all seem to think they are.”
I’ve yet to meet a single MRA who believes this.
“Equality is not a Zero-Sum Game. Everyone benefits from everyone else’s equal standing in society.”
I’m in complete agreement. I don’t know why you claim that I believe otherwise.
“Further, I have never met a feminist who is against male rights (however plenty of MRAs are against feminism, you included).”
Not only have I met feminists who were against men’s rights, but I’ve lived with them. I am anti-feminists. This does not imply that I am against women sharing equivalent rights and duties. In fact, I insist on it. What I stand against is the ideological nonsense and the behaviour that derives from feminist ideology. Bigotry and hypocrisy being the two most evident.
“Sure, they don’t vocalize and fight for male rights as frequently (I’ve seen several feminist speakers who have, though), but would it have made sense for a Civil Rights Activist to fight for the rights of white people during the Civil Rights Movement?”
And there is your presumption laid bare: that men have a preferred station in life, compared to women. This is simply and demonstrably wrong.
“No. You have to focus on what is more prevalent and bring attention to it.”
Such as men having no reproductive rights? Such as men being overtly and implicitly demonized? Such as rampant, institutionalized bigotry in law, culture and politics? You mistake frequent repetition for actuality and popular acceptance for importance.
“That’s the only way things change. Yeah, men have it shitty in some areas. Particularly the perpetuation by society that we are supposed to be dominant, hyper-masculine and emotionless. That’s very damaging to males as a whole.”
“But women experience the same sort of image-related issues propagated by our society on a larger scale, and they also are much more frequently the victims of domestic abuse, rape, victim blaming, slut shaming, fat shaming, cat calls, and image related insults.”
This argument is not fact based. In North America, domestic violence is a 50-50 affair. You can look it up using governmental statistics. More men than women are raped in the US. 2010 Department of Justice statistics: roughly 320 thousand men are raped in prison alone, and in the same year, across the country 270 thousand women were raped.
While women are shamed for their appearance, men are shamed for their performance. You are right, we have equivalents. Feminists ignore this. Feminism is one-sided. Egalitarians look at both sides.
“Tell me, how many times have you been beaten by a significant other? Or raped and then blamed for it? Or told you were a “whore” or “slut” because you had sex with someone?”
In North America, it’s 50%-50%. In Canada specifically, it’s 50% ± 1% across provinces and territories. How many women are falsely accused of rape and have done years of prison time for it? And yes, I’ve been called a “slut” and a “player”, because I had sex with someone.
“Or been told that you were fat/ugly/bitchy/prude for not responding to sexually harassment by a complete stranger?”
Been there too.
“Because none of those things have ever happened to me.”
Then, as the feminists might say “check your privilege before you speak”.
“But in our society, women have a VERY high change of experiencing one or more of those things in their life.”
And so do men.
“Statistically, it’s just about impossible for a women to not experience one of those things. I’ve been alive for quite a while and have never experienced anything close. But do you know how many girls I know who have experienced them? Many times I’ve even been present when they happened, and I’m sure you have too.”
Is your claim is that only women experience these issues? I know of a goodly number of men who have been raped, molested, and violently attacked. Further, I can count on one hand the number of men that I know who have not experienced physical violence, let alone relational aggression.
“But for some reason you choose to ignore that…”
“It’s painful to read through your replies. Look, men have power in our society.”
People have power in society. Some are men, some are women. Let us not forget that many of the worse off in society are also men. If you are unaware of the issues, I can share a handy list I have saved for folks such as yourself.
“It’s so obvious that I find it hard to believe there is anyone who doesn’t notice them. You claim that you don’t, so I’m left assuming that you’re either sheltered, really stupid, or are purposely trying to derail female advancement in society because you either see women as a threat or you want to continue reaping the benefits of sexism against females.”
Why is it obvious to you that men have power and not obvious that women also have power? And that men are powerless and women are powerless. Your point of view is quite one-sided–and this is a by-product of feminist thinking: overly simplistic; it is ideology rather than measurable fact and reality .
“Reading your comments, it’s obvious you haven’t done research either.”
Do go on… :)
“There are three waves of feminism, and you’re not accurately describing any one of them in your comments.”
Yes, I’m quite aware of the developmental stages of feminism. If you have a specific correction to make, please do so. Use facts, rather than waving you hands.
“I used to think feminism was about female superiority too (wasn’t even too long ago).”
I have never made that claim. I challenge you to copy-paste a quote where I do.
“Until I read about feminism and talked to feminists.”
I lived among a group of women who were women’s studies majors. I’ve read their books. It was an incessant conversation. They would on a nearly weekly basis gather together and more or less force me to sit among them and endure and blame and shame session, and would beat me over the head with their statistics, their stories, their theories and their ideas. This went on for three years or so. I’m familiar with feminist ideology. Thanks for asking.
“Lastly, I just wanted to say that a lot of the things you brought up are problems no doubt. But many of them are not for women to solve.”
Again, please quote me where I claimed that men’s issues were exclusively women’s to solve. And stop conflating “women” and “feminists”. If I understand correctly, you are male, this should be evidence enough that the conflation is incorrect.
“Feminism focuses on the issues women face in society. Just like you MRAs focus on men’s issues. Different movements with different purposes.”
Again, we’re in agreement.
“Yet you’re claiming feminism doesn’t do enough to help your cause? Well, neither do animal liberation groups. Because that’s not their focus!”
Again, I have never made such a claim. Quote me. I do claim that people behaving under the assumptions posited by feminist theory harms people, both women and men. I claim that the greatest majority of feminist claims, especially the foundational ones are false. I claim that it is a toxic ideology that promotes bigotry against men.
“Oh, and lastly, claiming that “false accusation” is as big of a problem as rape is fucking insane and insulting. Women have a 25% chance of being raped before they leave college, okay.”
Citation needed, okay? The 1 in 4 stat has not only been refuted, but the entire methodology, and thus the results, has been dismantled, dismembered and dismissed as incorrect. May I recommend spending some time reading The Innocence Project’s website? Or that of The Community of The Wrongly Accused?
“And a very large portion of rape victims don’t report the crime due to assholes like you who will tell them it was their fault for what they are wearing or that you don’t believe them.”
Once more: quote me. You are assigning all kind of claims to me that I have never made, and that I don’t endorse.
“Women are shunned and shamed for being victims of rape in this country.”
And men are falsely accused of being rapists all over the world. What is your point?
“Explain to me why a women would purposefully put herself through that if it weren’t true?”
First, it is not my obligation to speculate on a stranger’s motives. Here are some reasons given by the very women who have made false rape claims. The list is obviously incomplete. 1. To cover up an affair when caught 2. To save face before a peer group 3. Embarrassment as their choices of sexual partners 4. Has a high-conflict personality and enjoys attention and drama 5. To avoid paying for cab fare (I f*cking kid you not) 6. As revenge against someone who slighted her, or cheated on her 7. To gain advantages in legal proceedings.
To a woman who has not been raped, the procedures of making false rape allegations not traumatic. It is likely to be more traumatic to a woman who has been raped to make legitimate claims.
“Not to mention the conviction rate, even when ample evidence is provided, is far too low, so a false accusation is very unlikely to go anywhere.”
Again, you are not using facts. I refer you, once more, to the previously mentioned websites.
“But still, here you are arguing that the insignificant number of false accusations (when compared to overall rape statistics) is large enough that we should just forget about rape.”
Once again: I have never made this claim. Quote me. Question: is one single woman being raped insignificant? If not, when why would one man being violently beaten thanks to vigilante justice, or spending years in prison any less significant? Did we not agree that men and women deserve equivalent rights and obligations?
“Let women deal with it by themselves, right? Fuck it. They’re probably lying anyways.”
Yet again: Quote me. Yet again, you cannot.
“I don’t have a problem with male rights, obviously, but you MRAs are (usually) a different story. You claim that feminists don’t focus on your issues enough and then you turn around and do the exact same thing to a greater extent in addition to condemning women and being part of the problem they face.”
And, tiresomely, yet again: quote me.
“FEMINISM IS NOT INCOMPATIBLE WITH MALE RIGHTS!”
No need to shout. Have you been drinking? Feminism is incompatible with men’s rights. Bigotry is incompatible with men’s rights. Promoting bigoted behaviour and attitudes towards men is incompatible with men’s rights. Lobbying for laws that knowingly disadvantage men is incompatible with men’s rights. When a woman, amongst the highest ranking US politicians claims that “Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat.”, ignoring the inconvenient fact that it is husbands, father and sons who die in combat, is met with applause, the point is well illustrated.
“But your views are incompatible with feminism, because you are not talking about equality, and that is the paramount difference between the two movements.”
At this point, I’m wondering if you’ve even addressed the correct person. I speak only of equivalent rights and obligations for all humans. I am above all, an egalitarian–feminism is not an egalitarian movement. They claim to be, but demonstrate otherwise. Actions speak louder than words.
“The modern male rights movement was created in response to feminism”
No. The modern men’s rights movement was formed as a means to redress systemic and institutionalized inequities that men experience.
“and uses phrases like “faminazi” to purposefully insult women in the women’s rights movement.”
You are doing it again: conflating “women” and “feminism”. Read the following very, very carefully: “Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies. Women are people. Movements and ideologies are not people, and people are neither movements nor ideologies.”
“You’re whole joke of a movement was started out of spite!”
Seriously? Are you trolling me?
“How the fuck does that make sense. Let me answer that for you: IT DOESN’T!”
Yes. We agree. That claim makes no sense whatsoever.
“You’re just a misogynist prick trying to put a positive spin on your hate, when really all you do is troll feminist blogs and videos and insult women and anyone who stands up for them.”
1. I am not a misogynist. 2. I am not a prick. 3. I do not hate. 4. I do not troll. 5. I no longer read feminist blogs. 6. I do not insult women. 7. I do not insult people who stand up for women.
I am a kind, compassionate individual who does not tolerate bigotry–against anyone. I speak up for the egalitarian point of view. I speak out against feminism because 1. It’s claims are incorrect, 2. It is harmful in that it promotes falsehoods, and bigotry whose by product is hatred and antagonism against men as individuals and as a class.
“You’re a coward and a loser and you will never find true satisfaction in any of your relationships because you’re filled with hate and bigotry.”
Now that’s just impolite! :)
“I could continue writing forever, because what you have said is so offensive and wrong, but I’m done.”
Most everything you have attributed to me, from the claims made, to my attitudes to your understanding of my knowledge and experiences is simply incorrect.
“Reply if you want, but I’ve already wasted enough time on you. I’m sure one of the thousands of actually intelligent people on this thread will further respond to your idiocy.?”
Imagine: you had a full-on drag-out battle with a straw men–and the straw men won.
I stand bemused.