This is the kind of talk that makes MRA’s “scary” and “angry”.

Have you ever had one of those situations where you just knew that you should probably just shake your head and walk away?

I’ve been running into a number of them on this YouTube thread:
http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=-l7q71AimrA

And I keep failing to walk away.

I do it, because I’m irate. I feel like I’m in Ol’ Mississippi listening to Klan members discuss White Rights and the Nigger Problem.

At least the internet puts a significant barrier between myself and a real-world lynching.

Here’s the problem. If you got to know these people, one on one, you might find that they are quite decent individuals, each having talents, skills, and might be quite enjoyable on a social level.

Then this kind of extremely common ignorance gets spouted. MRA’s are accused of being “angry” and “scary”,  yet listen to what is said–publicly and is considered not only acceptable, but laudable.

A big part of me wants to simply inject the “why don’t we all get along and be fair to each other” meme straight into their skull. Reality prevents that, so I’m limited by words.

But I also have difficulty in accepting such bigotry and being candy-sweet about it in hopes of preventing them from clutching their pearls and pointing a trembling, outraged finger at me decrying “Bad! Bad MRA! ” (Read man who wants to keep wymyn in the sammich mines).

Sometimes “nice” doesn’t work. Sometimes one must stand up and treat the other as an adult who is expected to act so.

This is the kind of talk that cause people to think of MRA’s as “angry” and “scary”, and the primary reason given as to why men’s voices should not matter.

Tell me, when you run into such attitudes, do you honestly believe that that a kind, gentle, obsequious voice will make an impact?

If you can offer a practical “nice guy” strategy that has been proven to work, I am all ears.

Russell Fryman
UGH. MRAs are the fucking worst. Between them and ancaps [Edit: Anarcho-Capitalists?], I don’t know who is more terrible. They both rate somewhere near that greenish, putrid smelling, scummy slime that forms on stagnant water… though at least the slime can be cleaned up. These nasty little bastards always leave a stain on every part of the internet they touch that doesn’t wash off.

Jamie, you’re awesome. Fuck the haters.

And everyone else, pro-tip: arguing with these pukes is only good for raised blood-pressure. They’ll never learn, and their arguments are utterly without validity. But if you’re doing it for fun, then by all means, have a blast!

Francis Roy

You obviously have never taken the time to speak with an MRA. It is easy to demonize those that you don’t know and whose ideas you evidently know nothing of.

Russell Fryman
No, I don’t bother speaking with MRAs. Mostly because you can’t have a conversation through all their whining about being oppressed because women won’t sleep with them and/or make them a sandwich.

Pro-tip: it’s also easy to demonize someone’s ideas when every single one of their ideas is shit.

Francis Roy
+Russell Fryman
You are factually incorrect. You are also a bigot, and a hypocrite. You are obviously ignorant (as well as rude) so I shall now educate you and put you in your place.

1. MRA’s do not claim to be oppressed. Feminism, an ideology that is loosely based on Marxism adheres to the notion of class oppression, where men as a class replace la bourgeoisie and women as a class replace the proletariat. Class oppression is the very heart of feminist theory. Men’s Rights Activists focus exclusively on issues. [Edit: Men’s Rights Activists are not the inverse of Feminists, we are creatures apart.]

2. Men’s Rights Activists do not “whine about being oppressed because women won’t sleep with them and/or make them a sandwich”. The first part I have addressed. Men do bring up grievances about issues such as a complete and total lack of reproductive rights, and other iniquities under law, in culture, and politics.

3. We rail against bigotry: the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats or views other people with fear, distrust, hatred, contempt, or intolerance on the basis of a person’s ethnicity, race, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, disability, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics.

4. If you had taken just a few moments to honestly ask a member of the men’s rights movement, whether they be male, female, straight, bi, gay, trans or otherwise, you would get consistent answers, and would not have embarrassed yourself so in the comment I’m responding to.

5. Men’s Rights Advocates rail against hypocrisy. If the actions of feminists would match their rhetoric–that is if they did what they said, then “equality of the sexes” would be utterly paramount. A perfect role-reversal would leave both sides satisfied with any solution.

The following is a sampling of the issues that Men’s Rights Activists deal with. If women were bringing these issues up as their own concerns, would you call it “whining”?

Many men’s issues parallel women’s issues. Not all, but many. Women and feminists alike march and protest about such issues–for women, not for people.

A challenge: provide me evidence of a Feminist march, an action, or a conference against, or seeking to deal with any of the following male issues:

Cultural:
• Anti-Male Double Standards
• Chivalry (aka “Benevolent Sexism for women, against men”)
• Gynocentrism
• Women as victim narrative
• Men as perpetrator narrative
• Focus on men’s advantages, ignoring male disadvantage, inversely, ignoring women’s advantages, and hyper-focusing on disadvantages to create a narrative.
• Misandry (“Male bashing”)
• Male disposability
• Male invisibility
• Demonization of male sexuality

Education:
• Educational inequity for male students in terms of sex-specific funding
• Lower acceptance rates for males in higher education
• Legally inequitable standards for males in higher education
• Hostile environment to males in higher education (US: “Dear Colleague” letter).
• Overwhelming drugging of male child students as a means of behaviour modification

Legal:
• Absolute absence of reproductive rights for men * read this three times.
• Paternity fraud
• Family court injustice
• Abuse of divorce, alimony and child support laws
• Father’s rights, including parental alienation
• Suicide due to poverty, depression, helplessness and despair caused by family court.

Social issues
• Homelessness is mostly a male phenomenon
• Men’s sense of self and place in society

Health and medical issues:
• Male genital mutilation (“Circumcision”)
• Inequitable funding for health issues.
• Male suicide rate
• Mental health issues

Medical discrimination
• Men’s issues significantly underfunded
• Men’s issues have 2-3 times waiting period before addressed

Labour market issues:
• Workplace deaths are mostly men (93%+)
• Unemployment issues directly affect men more significantly than women

Violence issues:
• Violence against men in general
• Violence against men (direct)
• Violence against men (by proxy)
• Men are the highest group likely to be violently assaulted
• False accusation of violence
• False accusations of rape
• Primary aggressor laws
• Military conscription
• Sexual assault against men
• Domestic violence against men

Lack of support issues:
• Canada: 593 Shelters. 546 government funded shelters refuse males. 47 permit some (mostly children) males. 0 shelters for male victims of domestic abuse and their children.
• Homophobic violence: gay men overwhelming victims from people, and states.
• The entire list above is a reflection of issues that aren’t supported, or addressed for men and boys.

How much of the above matches up to “whining about not getting laid and not getting sammiches made”?

You stand corrected, and exposed.

Russell Fryman
tl;dr

Did you somehow get the impression in anything I said that I thought any of your viewpoints were legitimate? I thought I was pretty clear I didn’t.

This is what a feminist looks like.

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5 thoughts on “This is the kind of talk that makes MRA’s “scary” and “angry”.

  1. Kerina says:

    I’ve been following your comments on that thread and you have been pretty polite in the face of some obvious schoolyard ganging up and bullying. Good for you. I think you know by now that one of my biggest issues with the MRM is the perception that it is angry and scary. It has that reputation because people who genuinely hate women are attracted to a movement that says that the society favors women. Further, not only do these people tend to be noisy, but other people who have a beef against the MRM to begin with are going to happily point to all that ugliness and ascribe it to the movement in general. The angry, scary people in the MRM are giving feminists the very ammunition they need to keeps the MRM marginalized.

    I think the rational way to handle these accusation is to acknowledge that such people exist but then point out that their existence in the MRM is equivalent to the existence of man haters in the feminist movement. It says nothing about the validity of a cause that some of those who espouse it are bigots. What you should not do is pretend that your opponent is being hysterical in seeing “angry and scary” where it does not exist. You can never convince someone who knows you are lying to them.

    • Francis Roy says:

      I’ve been following your comments on that thread and you have been pretty polite in the face of some obvious schoolyard ganging up and bullying. Good for you.

      Interestingly enough, I was being deliberately hard on some of those people. I wasn’t trying to demean them, but I was intentionally unforgiving of certain aspects. In my mind, I was playing “the bad guy”, being very liberal with the use of names so as to shock them into thinking. At no point do I expect a concession, because human nature isn’t like that. Rarely will people say “I’m a bigot?! Wait! You’re right. Let me review my whole thought process now!”. What I am hoping is that when they see how easily their point of view is dismantled that it will settle an uncomfortable seed that will grow. Having had some sleep and no coffee yet, another thing has occurred to me. If I had been wiser, not only would I have sown a seed of destruction, but also a seed for a healthy plant, a way out. I did on a couple occasions suggesting egalitarianism, or equity feminism, but this is a learning process. I’ll get better at it as I go along.

  2. Kerina says:

    It’s funny. I was reading the comment thread you’ve been involved in and I saw that awful seeming feminist you’ve been arguing with say something wise. She said this:

    “LJY08
    14 hours ago

    Radicals reduce the credibility of practically every movement that they’re involved in. Where do you think the MRA get their ammunition against feminism from? Where do you think most people who aren’t feminists get their understandings of what feminism is?

    Radicals are never beneficial to a movement because nobody wants some asshole getting in their face and telling them riotously that they’re the problem, and they’d better change or else. That just makes people run in the other direction. Radicals do more harm than good to any movement they’re involved in.

    Radicals don’t join movements for change, they join movements to bolster their own egos. They’re no better than the tyranny they fight against. It all comes from the same mindset.”

    It’s too bad she can’t see how perfectly this can be applied to the MRM.

  3. gwen says:

    That definitely isnt the kind of comment that makes mra scary. I wish all were so eloquent and restrained. Alas I have been dismissed or threatened by men in the mra. Seems idiots abound regardless of affiliation. Good luck bringing more respectability to the movement. I sincerely hope that you are successful.

    • Francis Roy says:

      Have you been dismissed, or your arguments? Were you threatened or trolled? I ask, because these kind of distinctions are important. The MRM is inherently respectable, what needs to happen is two things: the first, is that we need to get MRA’s to be more diligent about their facts and the other is to learn to better persuade. While men have been advocating for these sort of issues since at least the early 1700’s (that I know of), it only seems to have reached critical mass in part, because of the internet, and in part because of the loud obnoxious yahoos who are willing to stand up to gender ideologues and challenge them. Then again, change requires activists, and most activists act because they’re angry with something.

      History teaches us that it is rare for a gentle message be remembered over that of the loud and brash. That’s just human nature.

      Now, if you’re interested, you can do your part. Send people to me. I welcome thoughtful and respectful conversation, even when it completely disagrees with me. The more mature and reasonable people discuss, the more the notions permeate, the less the need for people to shout.

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