More from a previously mentioned thread.
Since my comments on YouTube frequently and quietly vanish, I save them here for posterity. I invite your conversation and corrections should you have any.
Today’s “Metaphorical MRA Browbeating” is with affirmedatheist.
“Here’s the thing: If women are equal to men, then the logic follows that men are also equal to women. The latter is implied.”
Yes–but this is not the feminist message, it’s stated purpose nor it’s behaviourally demonstrated goals.
“The reason the focus is generally on women is because that’s the side that gets trodden the most.”
No. There are a number of problems with this argument. “Trodden upon” is vague to the point of uselessness as a referent. That one is exposed to the message “women are downtrodden” (which they are not) more than men (which is not quantified) is not indicative of the factual state of affairs. Said otherwise: that you hear it more doesn’t make it true.
“Male rape? That’s definitely a problem, though it’s a problem almost exclusively caused by other men.”
1. This is overly simplistic. 2. A victim is a victim regardless of the perpetrator–the point is irrelevant. 3. This is a mere perpetuation of the the feminist narrative of “men as perpetrators, women as victims”. This argument, as is the previous one is simply a lazy.
“I’m not saying F on M rape doesn’t occur (it does, it’s just far rarer. In fact, I think there was a case that got to court last year here in Oz where a woman was actually convicted.”
“Where it becomes a problem is where men, when confronted with the issues that women experience blame women for their own problems instead of [unfinished sentence]”
As you have just done above for men. By your very definition, your argument is “a problem”, and you have done what you complain about.
“And if men are more victims of violent crime, that’s usually CAUSED BY OTHER MEN, which makes it a non-sequitur.”
False. The only way this sentence can even make sense is the following assumptions are accepted: a. The point of speaking of men’s issues and to counter feminist rhetoric is to assign blame. b. An argument’s concordance with the feminist narrative of “Men as perpetrators and females as victims” is the measure by which the argument is to be evaluated.
“As is the racial argument. I’m not saying that black men don’t get a bad deal – they do – but black women have it even worse than black men, because they have both racism and sexism acting against them.”
False. First, the statement is so devoid of context as to be meaningless. It is little more than a bald assertion pointing to nothing. Second: if we do give context to the assertion, it will be found to be false in the majority of contexts. Black men “have it worse” than black women under law, with the police, in the court systems. They are stopped more, arrested more, charged more and convicted more, they are given longer and harsher sentences than black women for the same crime. Economically they receive less social support and are, politically, are under-represented vis a vis black women in terms of programs and lobbying efforts. Culturally, from my understanding, especially in “the black community” endure a greater amount of negative stereotyping, interpersonal conflict, experience a greater level of violence both publicly and domestically than black women and even their white counterparts.
“A note for MRAs: yes, some of your issues are legitimate”
Please name one commonly repeated claim of an issue made by Men’s Rights Activists in general that is false on it’s face. Name more, if you can think of them, I’ll address them all.
” – but that does not make your metaphorical browbeating of women any more acceptable.“
You will find that of those who “browbeat”, I would prefer to choose the term “rail against” as being more accurate fall into two categories. The first being MRA’s that are sloppy with language, and use the term “women” when what is intended is “feminists”. You, yourself have demonstrated the very same offence of conflating “women” and “feminist” Feminism is an ideology. Women are human beings. The second being a very natural human reaction to the treatment by women, interpersonally, as a class and of feminists who incessantly carry forth and act upon a narrative of male despicability.
“Drop the antagonism toward women, and feminists might be more receptive to your claims.”
The antagonism is the natural by-product of antagonism towards men. MRA’s respond to false claims (such as yours) that are consistently acted upon. We rail against those who “metaphorically browbeat” men. Unlike individuals such as yourself, as evidenced by your arguments, MRA’s have been utterly receptive to your claims. We have listened very carefully. We have thought deeply about what you have said–a favour which has yet to be returned by the majority of the population, I might add, and we have found the arguments that you use to typically be false as a whole, and individually. We object to the feminist narrative as bigoted and we counter-argue as I have above, only to have our arguments ignored, dismissed or as is frequently the case with me, to have polite and thoughtful comments simply quietly deleted. I have taken to putting these arguments up on my blog as a means of preserving evidence of this.
“(again, the male rape thing… definitely needs more attention, but I would add that fighting against rape culture can work both ways.”
This is an example of a feminist argument used that bears no relationship to reality whatsoever. That you use it so freely and without embarrassment indicates that you have never bothered to do a few simple things. First, to ascertain what rape culture is. Give me a clear definition without exclusively resorting to pointing to examples that you believe are representative of “rape culture”. Second, you are likely unaware that the term “rape culture” was coined by a black, male prisoner in Lorton Prison, Virginia to describe the environment of prison. Third, there is no sensible definition of “rape culture” that can be applied to North American (or even the Western world’s) culture.
Your arguments are not thoughtful, because you have failed to think about them before accepting them.
“And yes, ther eare resonable people who wish to call attention to issues that men experience; we are not against those issues being addressed.”
If you genuinely are an open minded individual (most claim to be, as a matter of mere lip-service), then excellent. If you are in fact a genuine egalitarian, I challenge you to continue this conversation with me, in this medium, or others.
Doing so will be the demise of your acceptance of feminist tenets, and this will better serve both women and men.