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Francis Roy's Blog 
Why? Because of the amazing accomplishment of him being a man? Respect is something you earn, not something you get. I’m not saying you should go around disrespecting everyone you see, but there’s a difference between not disrespecting and respecting.
Elton said
This is a trite remark that missed the mark. If an individual does not start with a base level of courtesy, civility and fairness that is a social obligation, then they are guilty of an act of unwarranted disrespect and of bigotry. One might go so far as to say that they are poorly raised.
Were I to accept your statement, I would have started with the presumption that you are unworthy of being treated with dignity, and that some amazing act is required on your part just to overcome that attitude.
In short: be amazing or fuck off, scumbag.
Is this the kind of attitude that you advocate? If so, should I treat you with disrespect for lack of an amazing opening statement? This, sadly, is a very common attitude toward men in general, these days, and thus, the meme.
That is not what I said, or at least not what I meant.
As I said above “there’s a difference between not disrespecting and respecting.” I was raised to be polite and I am polite but politeness does not equal respect, it seems we have different views on what respect is.
My view isn’t that you need an unbelievable heroic act of heroism or whatever, but what inspires me as a person and it may be a small thing from person to person that makes me respect them but I’m not about to put a picture on the wall of a guy for just being alive.
But then to my first question, why do you only support “respect” for men? In today’s society everyone’s taking a part of the blow, why wouldn’t you work for a society of equal “respect” and the like? In fact, I might go so far to say men is taking the least hit, care to give me some examples to change my mind?
This is a non-distinction without a difference. But I’ll accept that you simply haven’t phrased it well. There is more to respecting a person than mere courtesy, but even civility toward men is in short supply these days. Fairness is another important component, one which is in even shorter supply. Do you agree that people should be treated courteously and fairly?
Why do you presume that I only support respect for men? I suggest that you spend some time reading my blog, then ask yourself whether your question is based both on knowledge and fairness.
I am. The world has many problems. Will you dedicate your life to ending every single disease, end every conflict, cure all poverty, redress every single wrong? Maybe you’re better than I am, but I am not long-lived, wealthy, brilliant enough to do in essence that which only a god would be capable of. I work on something that I can do something about, and am motivated to work on. You might as well accuse me of being unfair for not working towards curing cancer and becoming the ultimate statesman that can with a few carefully chosen words create global peace now and forever all while being the world’s wealthiest and greatest philanthropist.
Let us take the simplest example. Every female in the Western world, even the lowest, poorest, least influential, most socially irrelevant has rights in law that even the most powerful male world leaders have: reproductive rights. I might mention that when female genital mutilation was brought to the world’s attention that the world tripped over itself to put an end to it, yet, amputating males of the most sensitive parts of their genitals is still considered the norm. While women have more than 18 different forms of fertility control, and have the choice to accept or reject parenthood, males do not. I, in fact, am the product of a shotgun wedding.
The fact that you aren’t aware of such things, or if you are, that you consider them to be “the least hit” is exemplary of the issue.
Do you believe that women have issues worthy of addressing, on their own, independent of men’s issues? If so, then can you give me a good reason as to why men should not enjoy the same, simple and fair treatment?
But you see, I think there’s a middle. I do agree that everyone should be treated with the same courtesy. But I don’t agree that by just being friendly you show respect. But as I said it seems we have a different idea of what respect means, I misunderstood you which made my first comment invalid.
I presume that since you put up a meme which encourages respect for men, not everyone.
But cure cancer and stop all wars is two entirely different things, I understand that a scientist working to cure cancer can’t work on curing Ebola, but that scientist can work to cure all cancers and not just one specific kind. (I’m not sure if that’s true but unless you’re determined to turn my words around I think you get the idea.) If lack of respect for men is one kind of a disease, lack of respect for women is another kind of the same disease, and lack of respect for different skin colors is also another kind of the same disease, you could work on just one but by working on the disease as a whole you’d be much more effective.
Well, female mutilation is extremely painful and dangerous, it’s also done when the female is aware of what’s happening around her. While male mutilation is done while he is a baby so he won’t have any memory of it, I’m not sure if they have something against the pain, and concerning health issues, at least it’s not done at home with dirty tools, right? Sure it’s a problem but it certainly isn’t the norm, at least not where I live, and from the article I saw it seems to be turning around in the US too as people start to become more medicly aware. Remember that it was only a couple of years ago that they stopped do surgery on babies in the stomach without anesthesia because they realized that babies do feel pain? Things are turning around as we learn more, including male mutilation.
About the parenthood thing, I agree that men should have the right to choose whether they want to have the baby as much as the female, but I also think it’s a difficult issue as young and stupid people have babies now, if the guy can just decide that he wants no part of it what will happen to the girl? We live in a society where abortion is very much looked down upon, and so are adoptions, females are supposed to be good moms, and as it’s both of their faults why should the girl fall the hardest? The second people start being more open minded about alternatives it will be easier for the men to walk away.
The reason people aren’t as aware of these things as the feminist issues, for example, is because men had such superiority, women had to change their place in society, but as we did that we ignored modernizing the mans place in the world. Do you know why guys are forced to parenthood? Because females weren’t allowed to work, and if they were it was probably a low-paying secretary job, so they had no way to take care of the baby alone, but that’s just my guess.
Another reason would probably be because men’s problems pale in comparison to others. Riots are happening in the US because of unequal treatment between two skin colors, there are terrorist organizations rising in the Middle East fighting for a twisted way of a religion that oppresses women to an extreme level and in some countries women makes less than men for the same job. I do think men and women should stand on equal ground, I really do, probably the rest of the first world does too, but that you can’t run away from parenthood aren’t exactly a first priority issue when it comes to equality.
Do you believe that women should generally be treated with respect? Then the same applies to men.
Your presumption was in error. People should be respected. Men are people. Men qua man deserve to be treated with respect.
I’m going to be generous and assume that this is simply the first time you’ve discussed the issue, and so haven’t thought about the issues.
I choose to work on men’s issues, because I believe that men’s issues are worthy of addressing on their own. Are you claiming that men’s issues are unworthy of being addressed?
So now it’s the “but women have it worse” argument. This argument is based on lack of knowledge.
I’ve had the tip of my penis sliced off. I do remember the event as a child, and as an adult I wish that I would have had full access to the integrity of my genitals. When I asked my mother why she had it done, her response was “that’s just what everyone did in those days.” That’s it. No better reason to remove the most sensitive part of my anatomy. I have spent my entire sexual life missing over 50% of the feelings that I could have enjoyed. I feel ripped off, and I would spare that for boys.
You need to learn the basics of the issues of circumcision. Start here: The Difference Between Male and Female Circumcision. Then take a few moments to view some of these articles on male circumcision in general.
Read the following: Circumcision: Information for parents by the Canadian Pediatric Society. Then follow up with this YouTube channel dedicated to intactivism.
It is the norm in Canada. I had not knowingly met an uncircumcised man until I was in my mid-20’s.
Are you implying that this means that the issues should no longer be addressed?
You make two arguments: 1. Women have it worse, 2. make a perfect world for women, and men’s issues will magically disappear. Wrong on both counts. Men’s issues are worthy of being addressed on their own, independent of women’s issues. Read this: Men have no reproductive rights.
The reason why people aren’t aware of these things is that until recently, few paid attention to men’s issues. Notice that as soon as you read “Men’s Rights is the radical notion that men deserve respect” that your first communication with me was to tell me that this notion is in the wrong?
That you believe that men had “superiority” let alone “such” superiority indicates that you aren’t well-versed in the issues, for either the men or the women’s side. I am willing to wager that I can articulate women’s point of view better than you can. Can you articulate men’s issues as well as you do women’s?
You are ignorant of the subject, and are in no position to evaluate either the facts or the probabilities. I’ve been dealing with such issues for years, and I can tell that you are only beginning to explore the subject–if you have at all.
Again, your argument is “others have it worse, therefore men’s issues aren’t worthy of being addressed.” Next time you find yourself in an automobile accident, please waive your right to medical treatment, because there are people who have it worse than you do.
You are in no position to tell me what my priorities are, or should be, nor can you speak for others. The most you can do is to tell me what your own priorities are, but we now both understand that you priorities are based on the darkness of ignorance.
I, and other men and women who choose to work on men’ issues, issues which you are quite oblivious to, do not require your approval or agreement.
Alright then, the meaning of ‘honor’ is as follows: high respect; great esteem, and the meaning of esteem is: respect and admiration, which means that to respect someone/something is to admire it, like I said it’s not about being polite, it’s about looking up to them, putting them on a pedestal if you will. And in that case, no, I do not think you should respect males nor females for just being alive.
Why wouldn’t you just write something like “respect each other” To avoid confusion?
It is my first time actually, why is it generous of you to assume that? Would you instead explain why my metaphor is wrong?
No, why would you turn my words to that? I said that working towards the final goal, with all issues in mind, one would be more effective in creating the society we want rather than everyone keeping different branches of the problem in mind. By solely focusing on one thing we easily forget the surroundings.
I can say this for probably the entirety of the rest of the post. I am not arguing for anyone, I’m not a feminist and not a MRA, I’m simply trying to learn your case and why you aren’t focusing on the approach I personally find better, but you’ve repeatedly taken every chance you’ve gotten to call me ignorant and I feel that speaks a lot about your cause, the same with your way of not trying to understand me or my point by the way. Plus, I know it needs attention, why do you think I came here in the first place? But it seems like you take a lot of chances to minimize other groups issues, which to me seems rather hypocritical, as that is what you accuse me of doing.
And I’m very glad your rights movement don’t need my absolute approval and loyalty cause I’m pretty sure you won’t be getting it. Have a nice day now.
I’ve already answered this. If you can’t be bothered to read, I can’t be bothered to write.
Someone who argues generously is one who seeks to understand and find their interlocutor’s meaning and deal with their ideas fairly. You are playing word games. That is an ungenerous position to take. Your use of the metaphor is wrong because you’re picking at nits.
You ask “Why wouldn’t you just write something like “respect each other” To avoid confusion?” The answer is simple. Because the message is that men deserve to be treated with basic human respect, as a default. I’m not addressing women’s issues, white’s issues, black’s issues, gay issues, trans issues, sightless issues, deaf issues, patient issues, poverty issues, autistic issues, veteran’s issues, union issues or left-handed turtle’s issues. I’m dealing with men’s issues. What is this blog’s byline? What do the majority of the articles address? What have I told you that I’m dealing with?
And you would be wrong. First, can you tell me what my final goal is? No. Why? Because 1. You haven’t asked. 2. You haven’t bothered reading–or even skimming–this blog.
When your car battery dies, do you deal with the battery, or do you focus on rebuilding the car and call it “dealing with automotive issues?” When your roof leaks, do you work on the whole of your property, hoping that general garden care will keep you dry? Men have specific issues that need redress. That’s what I focus on. If you want to work on something else, go right ahead, but don’t presume to tell me what I should focus on.
But you aren’t trying to learn about men’s issues. You walked in, argued that men don’t deserve basic respect. You assumed that you knew what I meant, and didn’t ask. When I attempted to clarify, you argued my clarification, make unwarranted assumptions, and throughout, missed the simple in-your-face point. You claim that your approach is “better.” Please show me the results of the work that you’ve done to demonstrate that “your approach” has done anything to deal with men’s issues, let alone anyone else’s.
And I was relatively nice about it. I’ve provided you with basic learning materials, and you have in no way given any sign that you’ve attended to them. You are ignorant of the issues, and yet waltz in speaking as though you know what the issues are and that you know how to deal with them “better” than those who take focused specific actions to accomplish things.
Let’s be clear. You don’t know what you’re talking about. You demonstrate a lack of knowledge, and admit to it, yet claim that you know better. You are very literally a person who is ignorant of the issues speaking about that which you know nothing about, and claim to know what I should focus on, and how to best accomplish the goals that I want to without having bothered to even ask me what they are. You speak arrogantly and presumptuously. If you don’t like being spoken as an adult, then you’re in the wrong place.
You feel wrong. If you had approached me the same way about gardening, would you claim that my pointing out that you don’t know a potato from a carrot speaks to gardening?
And what makes you think that?
I don’t know why you came here, you didn’t tell me.
… says the person who claimed “the same with your way of not trying to understand me or my point by the way.” I’ve given you my reasons more than once. I have not accused you of hypocrisy, only of ignorance, arrogance and presumption.
Recommendation: when approaching strangers, take the time to learn rather than knee-jerk, to ask questions rather than presume, and know the matter before you tell another how to do something that you are clueless about.
This smack upside your head was my good deed for the day. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.