Does the ‘F’ Word Scare You ? A response to feminist apologetics.

AkritiMattu
This is a response to Akriti who wrote Does the ‘F’ Word Scare You ?

Too long? Here’s a summary:

Your essay is an exercise in conflating First Wave Feminism with Second and Third Wave Feminism. Essentially, you have expounded, at great length and repetition, a  No True Scotsman argument. You are attempting to stretch the cloak of the First Wave Feminist’s moral authority to cover the later incarnations, and so tear the remainders at the seam. You do a disservice to genuine egalitarians by excusing bigots, a disservice to bigots by excusing them of responsibility, and a disservice to all by muddying the waters of what is “Feminism” is and by conflating all forms of “Feminism” as being a form of egalitarianism. You then, having conflated the values and ideas of the various groups, claim that if your mishmash of 2nd and 3rd wave feminism are not adhered to, that the egalitarian tenets of the 1st wave are violated, thus conclude that non-feminists must be bigots. Then you plagiarize work from jezebel.com, and end up self-celebrating your moral righteousness.

Let us begin.

” I’m a feminist  ” – These three words come across to a lot of people as some sort of a threat.

No more so than “I am a Scientologist”.

A threat that will overpower men.

No. Of bigots who wave the flag of egalitarianism while using the pole as a club the moment they believe that no one is watching.

A threat which will  prove fatal for the established structures of society.

No. Of organized activities that work to further women’s interests, all fair play, decency and consequences to others be damned.

A threat that might just lead to the doom of humanity.

♪ Dun-dun-duunnnn! ♪

High time, we clear the blurriness around the world’s most misconstrued and hated ‘F’ Word – Feminism.

Yes, let’s please!

Feminism is not a threat. Its not a curse. It is indeed a blessing.

You have failed to specify what you mean when you use the word, or perhaps you intend it as Humpty Dumpty does: “When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”

When you start speaking/writing about feminism, it’s like diving your nose into a cess pool of ignorant shit.

* Ahem *.

That’s the best analogy I can give here. Most people on hearing the ‘F’ word assume that, to be a feminist is like ,“Get out of my way, I don’t need anyone.” .. or something along the lines of “So you’re a feminist. That means you hate men, right?”

Why not simply use a definition, instead? The greatest failure of your essay is a lack of specificity. I don’t know whether it is born of lack of knowledge, or a deliberate dissembling, but I’ll assume the former. I don’t believe you are a fanatic, but one who is likely of the good willed, but lesser informed.

Allow me to gently correct your previous point. There are two classes of people who hear about feminism. Those who aren’t particularly involved, and those who are.

To those who aren’t particularly involved, the general and uninformed impression is a that of a vague, First Wave feminism, an attempt at egalitarianism that mistakes the 1800’s wishes of “equality FOR women TO men” without having updated their view to include current day circumstances.

Among the involved, there are three camps.

1. The greatest number are those who accept feminism uncritically. They view it as a positive;

2. there are those, anti-feminists, such as myself who have investigated, and continue to investigate feminism from roots to branches and view the modern-day incarnation as a nonsensical yet persuasive ideology, on par with Scientology and;

3. the smallest group of those who are completely uninterested and view it as a mere academic matter that irrelevant to themselves and to society in general.

Pretty sure those people have no idea what feminism means.

You err in your certainty.

There are dozens of people who won’t identify as feminists, probably representing thousands upon thousands of other women (and men) who then won’t either.

There are more likely thousands growing toward many millions, globally, that actively refuse and reject the title of Feminist–but neither of us have the true numbers in either case. The most frequent reason for that the average person rejects “Feminism” is having observed the behaviour and listened to the speech of, and considered the ideas of those that name themselves “Feminist”, generally, knowingly or not, are Radical Feminists. They are those who shy away from “the ick factor”, the very one your essay attempts to claim does not exist and yet requires correction.

And they are just perpetuating the idea that being a feminist is a dirty thing to be… which, if you think about it, is probably the best example of why feminism is relevant.

No, these people are expressing their reasons based on observation and knowledge of the ideas, speech and behaviour of those who name themselves “Feminist”. Not only is your assessment incorrect, but your argument to relevance does not follow.

I don’t believe that anybody should be pressured into identifying with a group, movement or label. So don’t interpret this as me believing everybody has to identify with something or another.

I’ll accept that.

However, I think the problem we have here is that people aren’t identifying as “feminists” when they otherwise would because they don’t want to be associated with the dirty stigma, or rather, they don’t really know what it means to be a feminist.

You are correct in that many refuse to self-identify as Feminist due to the stigma, but you have no basis for claiming that lack of knowledge is it’s basis. This is, at best, wishful thinking on your part.

Just because people have demonstrated extreme actions before and identified with “feminists” does not mean that accounts for the concept in and of itself.

Your argument is that the individual do not represent the whole. I’ll accept that, up until the point where the majority of said individuals that adopt the title Feminist adopt behaviour that is nonsensical, harmful, or extreme become the representative majority. Further, one need not be an extremist to demonstrate the bigotry or falsehood inherent in feminism. A mere constant and low-level demonstration of the values of Radical Feminism is all that is required to make the point; in other words, a constant drip will erode stone more surely as an explosive burst of water.

Feminism, mind you is NOT a dirty word.

Were it not, you would not be defending it. Your very efforts in this essay show that you recognize that the term “Feminism” in fact does have a stigma and is thought of as a “dirty word”. It is the very reason for your apologetic and attempt to reframe it.

But first: what the hell is feminism, anyway? Feminism is the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes.

That is one of two senses of the word. “Feminism” has two distinct senses. The first is that of “women’s equality to men”, the second sense is that of advocacy of women’s rights and interests. I’ve addressed this here:  Is feminism not just a label and a vehicle for someone who supports women’s rights? Your definition of the term “feminism” has a number of errors.

  1. It is incomplete, it focuses on only one aspect of the commonly accepted definitions of the word;
  2. your definition implies that the term “feminism” has one exclusive meaning, a rookie mistake, considering that anyone reading your article also has access to online dictionaries;
  3. you treat feminism as a monolith, when in fact it is not, and feminist themselves acknowledge that there are at least 47 variants of feminism, many contradictory;
  4. you treat the term “feminism” as though there is a general agreement as to the sense of the word, which I’ve already disproved; Feminists themselves acknowledge all the above.

You hear it – ‘of the sexes’ – not only of women.

See above.

Many people who are diametrically opposed to the feminist movement believe that it is a ‘war between the sexes,’ and that feminists are campaigning for their rights at the expense of men’s rights.

This is only because Radical Feminism, which is also the mainstream variant, pointedly promotes the notion that there is a war between the sexes. When there is a preponderance of evidence in writing by key Feminist members, when this it taught in university level “women’s studies” and when politicians, seeking to please a lobby speak as though it were true, when the majority of the movement explicitly claim that this is so and include this fundamental message in presupposition, when the actions that individuals and groups of self-proclaimed feminists behaviour act in accord with the this notion, it would be unreasonable for anyone to agree that it is otherwise. In short: we believe it because Feminist say it, and act so.

The fact is that we live in a profoundly anti-female society, a misogynistic “civilization” in which men collectively victimize women, attacking us as personifications of their own paranoid fears, as The Enemy. Within this society it is men who rape, who sap women’s energy, who deny women economic and political power. ~ Mary Daly

This is what has led to the rise of a ‘Men’s Rights Movement’

False. The Men’s Rights Movement has arisen due to the inequities that men face in politics, law and culture to correct the issues.

(which sadly is not a movement for equality but anti-woman).

False. The Men’s Rights Movement is not anti-woman in the least. It is pro men and boys, and pro women and girls. It is in fact, nothing more than a swell of people who believe that all humans deserve fair treatment decently observing that the current legal and social environment not only do not support this goal, but actively works against it. The Men’s Rights Movement, ironically, seeks to achieve what First Wave Feminists claimed to have stood for: equitable rights for all, that is until they were consumed and mutated by parasitic gender ideologues. We also bring a concept novel to most Feminists: that with equal rights, come equal obligations and duties. The Men’s Rights Movement has nothing to do with Feminism. It’s merely that Radical Feminists have become parasites gone rampant. The Men’s Rights Movement is an immune reaction to the infection of Radical Feminism.

Feminism is not about hurting men, but about empowering women to be equal to them in all areas of society.

This is the Equal To versus Equal With fallacy. Radical Feminism presume that men’s circumstance is the measure by which women’s success must be measured. Feminists gaze at the top 10% of the world’s men and claim that all women should have these same advantages. Rarely do they notice the 90% of men who do not have these same advantages, nor do they attend to the fact that men who have achieved success in life, by its very definition, is that they have sought a goal, worked for it, and achieved it. They accepted the duties and obligation of creating their own opportunities.

Here’s the thing – Feminism is about gender equality. Feminism is “equalism”, which, by the way, isn’t a word.

Which variant of Feminism? Certainly not Radical, or Mainstream Feminism. Again, while you pick the prettiest cherries, you fail to attend to the rotten fruit in the bowl and somehow hope that fine words will cover the stink of the rot. This is my main issue with Feminists that make claims to some form of egalitarianism.

I, as an anti-feminist–a position, incidentally, unrelated to the Men’s Rights Movement–recognize the rot, and throw it out. The decay is so pervasive that the term which you cherish now represents all that you wish it would not, but you and others try to talk us out of our own senses. If your intentions are genuinely egalitarian, I welcome your shoulder to our collective wheel, but your broad-sweeping claims are demonstrably false.

I think “humanist” is the one I’m are looking for. Feminism is about fighting for women to have the same rights and freedoms afforded to men.

I have already addressed the Equal To / Equal With fallacy that you are now repeating. It is incompatible with your claim.

Feminists want equality, not supremacy.

Egalitarians seek equality. Radical, or Mainstream Feminists seek to advance women’s interests, and damned be the men–or women that they may incidentally harm in the name of their ideology. In many cases they attempt to re-write language, history and laws to minimize the roles and value of men, and attempt an inverse promotion of women. I am willing to concede that there may be no general acceptance of an intentional goal of domination. I do note, however, that though political manoeuvring, that the result is slowly coming to fruition.

Hating men is a different thing altogether.  Ever heard the term misandrist? It’s like misogynist but for hating men instead of women (feel free to look it up in the dictionary). There’s a difference between “feminists” and “misandrists.”

But what you cannot argue is that a goodly number of Feminists imbue your movement with the patina of misandry.

Yes, ‘misandrist’ is a word people should despise , not feminism.

Feminism deserves being despised for what it is, regardless of the attached misandry. Radical Feminism as it is practised is not only misandrist, but misogynist as well.

 Feminism and misandry are, by nature, mutually exclusive.

Of course not. They are not automatically inclusive, but by no means are they exclusive.

You can’t want gender equality on one hand and hate one of the genders on the other. That would make no sense at all.

Agreed.

Humanism is the goal we are all striving for. Humanism is the dream.

Then abandon feminism, and become a Humanist. Humanists strive to achieve Humanist goals. Feminists strive to achieve Feminist goals. The two are often at odds.

Pat Robertson had famously said a very obnoxious thing in the 90s, which is – “The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians.”

While Robertson is obnoxious, and does bring his own *ahem* “unique” perspective, he is correct in a number of things.

  1. Radical/Feminism is an expression of, and is based on Marxist socialism;
  2. it is also anti-family, and bends laws, politics and cultural messages to that end;
  3. it also has lobbied for and successfully brought about conditions that encourage women to leave men at a whim;

An observation: many feminist factions actively root for the destruction of capitalist systems; and another: Lesbian feminists would claim that one cannot be a feminist without being Lesbian.

Sadly, the sentiment still rings as true in the ears of many today.  It’s an understatement to say that feminism has a bad rap. It does, sadly though.

A well-earned, bad reputation based on the words and deeds of self-proclaimed Feminists.

Feminists don’t hate men.

Correction: some feminist don’t hate men. Some do.

We hate patriarchy.

From your very article:

Patriarchy says...

Image taken from Does the ‘F’ Word Scare You ? http://akritimattu.wordpress.com/2014/03/16/does-the-f-word-scare-you/

There is no “Patriarchy”. The Patriarchy Hypothesis, is a tenet of Feminist Theory. Contrary to your chosen example, a non-human, non-existent Patriarchy cannot “say” anything. It is Radical Feminists who say the above and, in the same breath, disclaim responsibility for their words, a good example of the psychological phenomena of “projection”. The very image that you use in your article demonstrates the conflict between First Wave and later waves of Feminism.

Back to the issue. None of the conditions that meet the “10 dimensions” to meet a Patriarchal society–using the correct sense of the word–are found in North American society, and I might risk saying as much for the Western World.

  • lack of property control by women
  • lack of power of women in kinship contexts
  • low value placed on the lives of women
  • low value placed on the labor of women
  • lack of domestic authority of women
  • absence of ritualized female solidarity
  • absence of control over women’s marital and sexual lives
  • absence of ritualized fear of women
  • lack of male-female joint participation in warfare, work, and community decision making
  • lack of women’s indirect influence on decision making

“While the term patriarchy generally refers to institutions, the term is sometimes used less effectively in describing societal attitudes.”
https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Patriarchy.html

I will point out something humorous: note that the absence of Gynophobia–an abnormal fear of women–is a criteria for the existence of “Patriarchy?” Incidentally, if anyone can point me to Whyte’s oft-cited but completely unfindable by me 1978 study, I’d appreciate it.

Patriarchy is the notion that men have wittingly or not created a system by which women are disadvantaged by men, for men’s purposes. If you believe this, then you must accept that men are either stupid, psychopathic, or bestial. And you claim that this basic tenet of Radical Feminism is not misandry, the hatred or contempt for men? The very notion of patriarchy theory is seeing men as simultaneously all-powerful and morally inferior. And I assure you, that while the greatest majority of Radical Feminists claim to not “hate” men, that is, to experience a passionate dislike, their every behaviour demonstrates otherwise.

Also, please stop cribbing your arguments. If you actually care about making this a better world for everyone, I would urge you to review your core beliefs with a dispassionate and skeptical eye. Please review them without the aura of the familiar adherence, but as a strange and suspicious new idea that you have never visited. Inspect it’s implications and presuppositions. Only by an objective inspection of this idea will you free your mind of it.

People have got to understand that Feminism is not equal to hating men. Feminist doesn’t mean “ a person who hates men.”

Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies that advocate for women’s interests and equality with the false perception of a man’s advantaged situation. While the hatred that is demonstrated by Radical Feminists is not prescribed by the ideology, adherence to it demonstrably leads to it, however.

 Feminist means “ a person who believes people should have equitable places in society regardless of their gender.”

Again, you are attempting to conflate First Wave Feminism with the latter versions.

Some women claiming themselves to be feminists (who have got it all wrong by the way) may be misandrists.

The individual doesn’t represent the group, but what of when the group is mostly composed of people who behave as though they were?

But it’s by no means a criterion to join the club.

But it most certainly can be a by-product.

Though they’re not even that loud, but can seem so because the anti-feminists somehow like to cherry pick quotes and ignore the much greater number of feminist writings, people, and organizations that say otherwise.

Do not make me break out the YouTube videos, Sister.

I find it interesting that you accuse anti-feminists of being cherry pickers when you have based this very essay on cherry picking. This, by the way, it very, very typical of feminists. It is an hypocritical blind spot that generated by the ideology’s wish to cloak itself in the moral authority of the original Feminist egalitarianism while using the No True Scotsman fallacy to kick sand over the turd that is the modern incarnation of Gynocentric Radical Feminism.

Don’t tell us that Not All Feminists Are Like That. Tell them to Not Be Like That.

Until such time as we see Feminists policing Feminists with the same force and vigour that is applied to Men’s Rights Activists, your statement’s credibility is essentially nil.

Some individual females can hate men. You might even argue based on what you find on the internet that most feminists hate men.  It’s irrelevant. What is relevant and what matters is that feminism, distilled down to its absolute core, is about gender equity.

I’m willing to grant you a certain amount of lee-way on this. I will, as I previously have, concede that individuals do not necessarily represent the whole. Where I expect you to stand up is to accept that the preponderant majority by their words and deeds, when they self-identify using a label, do in fact represent the label. The only way out of this argument is to divorce yourself from that group. One way of doing this is to adopt and use a sub-division label in a fairly consistent manner. One such example might to self-identify as “an egalitarian feminist”, but then again, this leads to the issue of conflation.

In all truth, there is no way that you can claim to be both a feminist and be egalitarian or humanist. Here’s the good news: there is no need to accept the label “feminist” to work for women’s interests and rights. You can work towards most of your goals without the word. The word “Feminism” is baggage.

I offer you the following challenge.

I don't really need feminism at all

The goal of feminism is to create a society in which individuals’ genders don’t restrict them from an equitable shot at success and happiness.

I recommend reading Christina Hoff Sommers‘ book “Who Stole Feminism?: How Women Have Betrayed Women.”

Most feminists actively disagree with the belief that women are better than men

The problem, once again is that there are many feminists who inspire both men and women to believe, if not that women are superior to men (which many, many do), then at least that men are morally inferior to women. The net result may be even worse.

[…] and think that feminists who are anti-men are going against the fundamental principles of feminism, which says we’re all deserving and worthy human beings – women, men, trans-genders everyone – and should be treated as such. So men-hating isn’t a part of that goal…

See above. Everything above.

Frankly speaking not an issue to be given any weightage.  It’s an unfortunate reactionary sentiment bought into by some people (misandrists) who also identify with the feminist movement.

Your complaint is that feminism has become synonymous with misandry and bigotry, and you have agreed that that feminists believe this, non-feminist believe this and that the public believes this. This is the very reason for your essay. Yet– you would claim that the claim that feminists are perceived as misandrists bears no weight?

The whole “feminists hate men” thing has been tossed around for quite a long time now.  It’s not new.

Agreed.

The first feminist women who began advocating for equal status of women in the US did so in the late 1700′s, but it didn’t really pick up steam until the late 1800′s.

But this group was not widely perceived as misandrists.

What crazy radical things were these feminists , you call them man-haters asking for, by the way? Primarily, the rights to own property, to attend college, and to vote. In response to these requests, they were were labeled as anti-family, anti-God, anti-men radical hedonists.

Oddly enough, this resembles the charges made against Men’s Rights Activists: misogynist, anti-woman, radical rape apologists, etc.

That labeling has continued to today,

Well, in fact no. Women do have all the above requested rights in The Western World, current day, specifically because men accepted the arguments and acquiesced to making the changes.

because — surprise! — a group with a lot of power (men) tends to do whatever it can to maintain that power (dismiss equal rights as radical). Its not new. It’s happened with every oppressed ethnic group (from the Irish to the Africans) . It happened with oppressed religious groups (from the Catholics to the Muslims).

Yes, as is happening to men, here and now.

 And it continues today with the oppressed gender group.

I would urge you (and all Feminists) to give up your buzzwords in favour of a dictionary. Oppressed. Further, note your phrasing. The. Oppressed. Gender Group. Yet earlier you had said: “Many people who are diametrically opposed to the feminist movement believe that it is a ‘war between the sexes,’ […]”. Your above quote is an example of why people hold such beliefs.

Most men aren’t bad ( I can proudly say that about my generation)

How condescending of you. And I bet some of your best friends are Black, too.

[…] but somehow think Feminism says they are.

“Women have very little idea of how much men hate them.

~ Germaine Greer

In actuality,  sexism is the problem — sexism that a lot of men engage in and a lot of women internalize.

And that a lot of women engage in, and that a lot of men internalize.

Men engage in sexism because they’ve been taught to behave/think that way.  Women internalize it for the same reason.

See above.

Feminism asks both men and women to critically think about those normalized behavior and its impact, and holds people accountable to sexist thinking and behavior even if they didn’t initially realize it was sexist.

Feminism asks men and women to think of sexism as perpetrated by men and for women to think of sexism as perpetrated against them.

So yes, it’s natural to get defensive when someone brings up feminist issues because it’s likely you never thought you were doing anything wrong.

And it is natural to get angry when bigotry cloaked as compassion is directed at you, even when you weren’t doing “anything wrong”.

Does that make sexist behavior acceptable?  No. That’s why we need to do a better job as a society to teach people how to treat each other with equity.

I’ll buy that.

That’s what feminism is trying to do here.

That is not what it has been demonstrated, nor, the results that it has created.

Feminists are mothers, daughters, and all kinds of women who have wonderful relationships with men in their lives;

Feminists are also fathers, sons and all kind of men who have wonderful relationships with the women in their lives. So are Men’s Rights Activists, Egalitarians, non-politicals, Buddhists, Christians and so on. You are attempting to use normal human behaviour by the masses to support the point that Feminism is not an ideology that harms people. This does not follow.

[…] however, feminists hate some behavior displayed by men who are misogynistic, who put women down, who believe that women are not equal beings, and who sexualize women.

Feminists simply want to be treated equally and with respect.

Men’s Rights Activists want everyone to be treated with respect. This includes men as well as women. Not just a certain ideological group or sex. Anti-feminists recognize your statements for what they are.

Feminists absolutely do not hate men.

You are repeating yourself. This has already been addressed.

The statement is actually formulated to paint all feminists in one broad stroke, which is a shame.

And so are your apologetics.

Feminism has historically come in different waves starting from the drive for voting rights. To put it simply: not all feminists believe exactly the same thing.

So you finally own up to it. Excellent.

It depends on the era they come from and the point of view they have developed.

No, it depends on how much thought and research has gone into “Feminism” by the one who is evaluating (or not) the ideas.

It’s a shame that some men feel intimidated by a woman demanding the right to pay equity and other rights.

And then two sentences later, you conflate again. You also mischaracterize men in general, even though you use the qualifier “some”.

Asking for men to treat women fairly is not the same as hate.

Again with the conflation.

Feminists simply want women to have an equal place and equal status in society.

Which they do. Name one right in law, in current day North America that men have, that women do not.

Feminists are normal beings. They get married, have children, and love the men in their lives. And to be honest, many wonderful feminists actually ARE MEN themselves. They clearly do not hate men. Feminism isn’t about hate.

Once again with your broad-brush, and your NAFALT argument and the repetiting of “since people are good, and feminists are people, feminists must be good” argument. A syllogism result is only as valuable as its input.

There are some feminists that hate men and those feminists have lost the point of feminism. Feminism by definition is about equality.

Blah, blah, blah. Repeat, repeat, repeat.

You might argue that feminism is pointless in the first world, however inequality still does exist.

I do argue that feminism is pointless in the first world. The First Wave’s goals have been achieved. The Second and Third wave is merely moneyed gynocentrism following the Iron Law of Bureaucracy.

Women are still not always treated equal

Men and women will never be treated “equally”, but we may be treated with equivalent dignity and respect–or lack thereof–which I contend is the case.

[…] and the way I see it, anyone who believes in human rights and equality, is a feminist.

You see it incorrectly. Feminism is not about equality of humans, but equality of women using a strawman of men’s position as the standard, and of women’s advocacy.

Both men and women can be feminists,

Yes.

feminism is about gender equality,

No. I’ve address this too many times, so far.

so it also includes standing up for men’s rights too.

Non sequitur. It does not follow.

Men are very involved in feminism, we just don’t see them as much.

Yes, and yes we do.

Men understand that these issues impact them as well, that patriarchy and double standards hurt them, and they want things to change.

No, feminists men believe these things. Yes, double standards, to which we see very few Feminists attempting to deal with internally do harm both sexes.

Feminism has normally been a wonderful movement, evening the turf, fighting for the rights of women and men.

No, it stopped being anything close to “wonderful” when it transformed into a gynocentric advocacy group that generated a class war against men.

We live in a world of measurable, glaring inequalities. Look at politicians, CEOs, film directors, law enforcement officers, comedians, tech professionals, executive chefs, mathematicians, and on and on and on—these fields are dominated by men. (And, in many cases, white men.)

The argument of numeric parity is a fallacy. Look it up, or find it here on my blog.

To claim that there is no systemic inequality keeping women and minorities out of those jobs is to claim that men are naturally better.

False. You have just said: “To claim that there is no systematic inequality keeping 92% of the population out of those jobs is to claim that men are naturally better”. Your very statement is an exercise in sexism, racism, bigotry based on ignorance.

If there is no social structure favoring men, then it stands to reason that men simply work harder and/or are more skilled in nearly every high-level specialized field.

Oddly enough, that is close to the case. While this statement IS a generalization, men do tend to be more career oriented, simply because the expectation is on us to to be high-status individuals who must be providers, which requires money, and protectors, which money assists. This does not dismiss hard working and focused women who achieve much on their own.

It’s fine (though discouraging) if you legitimately believe that, but you need to own up to the fact that that is a self-serving and bigoted point of view.

It is neither self-serving nor bigoted when it is factually measured. What IS self-serving and bigoted is in denying the conditions that lead to this on anyone’s part.

There are numerous other factors that affect pay.  Most fundamentally, men and women tend to gravitate toward different industries. Feminists may charge that women are socialized into lower-paying sectors of the economy.  But women considering the decisions they’ve made likely have a different view. Women tend to seek jobs with regular hours, more comfortable conditions, little travel, and greater personal fulfillment.  Often times, women are willing to trade higher pay for jobs with other characteristics that they find attractive.

Men, in contrast, often take jobs with less desirable characteristics in pursuit of higher pay.  They work long hours and overnight shifts. They tar roofs in the sun, drive trucks across the country, toil in sewer systems, stand watch as prison guards, and risk injury on fishing boats, in coal mines, and in production plants.  Such jobs pay more than others because otherwise no one would want to do them.

Unsurprisingly, children play an important role in men and women’s work-life decisions.  Simply put, women who have children or plan to have children tend to be willing to trade higher pay for more kid-friendly positions.  In contrast, men with children typically seek to earn more money in order to support children, sometimes taking on more hours and less attractive positions to do so.

Academics can debate why men and women make these different choices.  The important takeaway, however, is that there are many reasons that men and women on average earn different amounts.  It’s a mistake to assume that “wage gap” statistics reflect on-the-job discrimination.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/04/16/its-time-that-we-end-the-equal-pay-myth/

I recommend reading An Analysis of Reasons for the Disparity in Wages Between Men and Women.

If you do not consider yourself a bigot, then kindly get on board with those of us who are trying to proactively correct inequalities.

May I recommend that it would be a more effective practice for you to step out of  your cobbled-and-creaky boat and jump onto one that actually will take you to where it claims to? Which is more important to you–the vehicle, or the destination? You have many choices, but you cannot have one leg on the USS Feminism and the other on any other boat.

It is not enough to be neutral and tacitly benefit from inequality while others are left behind through no fault of their own. Anti-sexism, anti-racism, anti-homophobia, anti-transphobia—that’s where we’re at now. Catch up or own your prejudice.

Oh, and another reason that I’m an anti-feminist? I can’t stand the self-righteous, holier than thou moralizing that accompanies modern Feminism.

If there’s one movement that upholds the idea of equality – it is feminism.

See entirety of the above.

I can say that because there is a whole set of issues concerning men that feminists are working on .

You can say it, but that doesn’t make it true. And that you make claims is not the same as demonstration and results.

Feminists do not want men to lose custody of their children. The assumption that women are naturally better caregivers is part of patriarchy.

No, in fact, the reason that men tend to lose custody of their children more often is because of the doctrine of “best interests of the child” which replaced the Tender Years Doctrine.

You claim to speak on the behalf of feminists. Why don’t you know this? Don’t worry, your ignorance of the facts is quite common among Feminists.

Feminists do not want men to lose custody of their children. The assumption that women are naturally better caregivers is part of patriarchy. Feminists do not like commercials in which bumbling dads mess up the laundry and competent wives have to bustle in and fix it. The assumption that women are naturally better housekeepers is part of patriarchy. Feminism never made that claim, patriarchy did and that is why we hate patriarchy. Feminists do not want you to have to make alimony payments. Alimony is set up to combat the fact that women have been historically expected to prioritize domestic duties over professional goals, thus minimizing their earning potential if their “traditional” marriages end. The assumption that wives should make babies instead of money is part of patriarchy. Again patriarchy! Feminists do not want anyone to get raped in prison. Permissiveness and jokes about prison rape are part of rape culture, which is part of patriarchy.  Feminists do not want anyone to be falsely accused of rape. False rape accusations discredit rape victims, which reinforces rape culture, which is part of patriarchy. Feminists do not want you to be lonely and we do not hate “nice guys.” The idea that certain people are inherently more valuable than other people because of superficial physical attributes is part of patriarchy. Feminists do not want you to have to pay for dinner. We want the opportunity to achieve financial success on par with men in any field we choose (and are qualified for), and the fact that we currently don’t is part of patriarchy.

The idea that men should coddle and provide for women, and/or purchase their affections in romantic contexts, is condescending and damaging and part of patriarchy. Feminists do not want you to be maimed or killed in industrial accidents, or toil in coal mines while we do cushy secretarial work and various yarn-themed activities. The fact that women have long been shut out of dangerous industrial jobs (by men, by the way) is part of patriarchy. Feminists do not want you to commit suicide. Any pressures and expectations that lower the quality of life of any gender are part of patriarchy. The fact that depression is characterized as an effeminate weakness, making men less likely to seek treatment, is part of patriarchy. Feminists do not want you to be viewed with suspicion when you take your child to the park (men frequently insist that this is a serious issue, so I will take them at their word). The assumption that men are insatiable sexual animals, combined with the idea that it’s unnatural for men to care for children, is part of patriarchy. Feminists do not want you to be drafted and then die in a war while we stay home and iron stuff. The idea that women are too weak to fight or too delicate to function in a military setting is part of patriarchy. Feminists do not want women to escape prosecution on legitimate domestic violence charges, nor do we want men to be ridiculed for being raped or abused. The idea that women are naturally gentle and compliant and that victimhood is inherently feminine is part of patriarchy. Patriarchy is what we’ve got to criticize, not just criticize – essentially oppose and change. If you really care about the issues mentioned as passionately as you say you do, you should be thanking feminists, because feminism is a social movement actively dedicated to dismantling every single one of them. The fact that you blame feminists—your allies—for problems against which they have been struggling for decades suggests that supporting men isn’t nearly as important to you as resenting women. We care about your problems a lot. Could you try caring about ours?

To all the men who have had shitty lives and mistake that pain for “misandry”: I totally get it.  And I’m sorry if you haven’t found that so far in your life. But it’s not women’s fault, it’s not my fault, and it’s certainly not feminism’s fault. The thing is, you’re not really that different from the women you rail against so passionately —the women who are trying to carve out some space and assert their value in a world of powerful men. Plenty of women know exactly what it feels like to be pushed to the fringe of society, to be rejected so many times that you eventually reject yourself. That alienation is a big part of what feminism is fighting against. A lot of those women would be on your side, if you would just let them instead of insisting that they’re the villains. It’s better over here, and we have room for you. So stop trying to convince us that we hate you and I promise we’ll start liking you a whole lot more.

Wait a minute! I thought your arguments sounded more familiar than the mere repetition that is typical of feminists. You have just plagiarized good portions of If I Admit That ‘Hating Men’ Is a Thing, Will You Stop Turning It Into a Self-Fulfilling Prophecy? Even your editing mistake points to it.

You poser! “Reflections of a deeper psyche!” indeed. You’re as bad as Big Red.

Life  isn’t fair always, because of coincidence and circumstance and the DNA you were born with, and we all have to accept the hands we’re dealt and live within that reality.

Agreed.

But life doesn’t have to be additionally unfair because of imposed systems of disenfranchisement  that only affect certain groups. We can fight against that.

Which is why I’m an anti-feminist and an egalitarian and a Men’s Rights Activist.

Feminism isn’t about striving for individual fairness, on a life-by-life basis

I’ll say.

—it’s about fighting against a systematic ‘removal of opportunities’ that infringes on women’s basic freedoms.

On women’s basic freedoms. Not people’s. Weren’t you just a few paragraphs above stating that Feminists also worked toward equality for men? Lip-service with a slip of the tongue.

If a woman and a man have equal potential in a field, they should have an equal opportunity to achieve success in that field.

No. If they have equal skill, talent and experience, they should. Women do have the same opportunity as do men, in North America. Success is up to the individual.

It’s not that we want the least qualified women to be handed everything just because they’re women.

Feminists fight for quotas on the boards of long-established companies for “non-white men” regardless of equivalence of qualifications. This gender quota system has been in place for years in academia, where women are chosen specifically because they are women, even when of a lesser value to the task.

It’s that we want all women to have the same opportunities as all men to fulfill (or fail to fulfill, on their own inherent merits) their potential.

You’ve got it. Job done. It’s time to move on.

If a particular woman is under qualified for a particular job, fine. That isn’t sexism.

See above.

But she shouldn’t have to be systematically set up, from birth, to be under qualified for all jobs (except for jobs that reinforce traditional femininity).

She isn’t, unless you believe that women are stupid and weak, which might lead one to accuse you of misogyny. Do you have this belief? Or do you believe that she is just as able to handle the very same challenges than men do?

Hence, we have a lot of thinking to do as ‘humans’ – not as a woman , not as a man ; just as human beings.

Hence, my position.

We have to really ponder on the fact that every time we refuse to call ourselves a feminist, or make a disparaging comment about “feminists” as a group of people or “feminism” as an ideology and movement, we are inadvertently implying that women don’t deserve gender equality.

I have pondered this. The answer is no.

We are reinforcing the divide that already exists.

No. “We” are not. This is the primary mission of feminism. The Iron Law of Bureaucracy dictates it.

Feminism, therefore is not a threat, never was. It’s a movement, a change already happening that is benefitting both men and women. It is helping us realize our humanity. It is helping us prevent to image of ourselves imposed by patriarchy as a construct of society. It is helping us unburden ourselves of the continual fear of failing that construct. Feminism is a gift to us. It is a way we can deepen our own humanity and, in fact, sometimes even claim our own humanity for the first time. Humanity that has been long lost. Time to revive it.

Uh-huh.

I take pride in calling myself a  feminist. Do you ??

No. I choose Egalitarianism, anti-feminism and Men’s Rights Activism as a mean of creating a world that respects people.

I welcome your thoughtful feedback.

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18 thoughts on “Does the ‘F’ Word Scare You ? A response to feminist apologetics.

  1. Akriti says:

    Hang me for offending you.

  2. Akriti says:

    I should have known this first. Your’e a part of MRM so your reaction is justified. Thats the difference between you and me. I didn’t even care squat ,to search your blog and try bashing you up but u tried doing that ..maybe coz’ the only purpose of MRMs is to bash women , especially feminists. Gives them a feeling they conquered the world. Pretty good living in your fool’s paradise haan ? As if doing that will solve your issues.

    Instead of analyzing my blog, stanza by stanza and accusing me of plagiarism ( Which din’t even happen in the first place ,since i cited the reference), why don’t you give your vision of Men’s Rights Movement? Actually, MRM should not stand for Mens Rights Movement. It should stand for MISOGYNIST RIGHTS MOVEMENT. suits it. Its actually hilarious how you pick up on individual people here just to show your presence. I feel like sympathising with you. Nobody’s there to hear you. So sad. Plus i have also have a feeling that either the women in your life have really messed u up or you just don’t have any and that is so sad. Hence, your generalization and your reaction. I insist remove the word “apologetic” from the title coz’ it does not make any sense there. Use the word ‘Bitch’. Will give more weightage to your analysis. You’ve worked so hard at it so shouldn’t go waste.

    Thank you for proving my stance right – The F Word scares the hell out of you and also a huge THANK U for analysing my post and tagging my name on your blog, it has a wider audience now!!

    P.S. Here are views on MRM’s by some MEN themselves. I’m sure you’ll have time to visit their blog and do exactly the same analysis as you did to mine. It’ll be super interesting to see how men themselves give you feedback . REAL men!!

    Debunking the Men’s Rights Movement http://wp.me/p4qGRw-2 via @wordpressdotcom

    Men’s Rights: We Don’t Want Them http://wp.me/p268OL-9A via @wordpressdotcom

    http://neilblr.com/post/73389649034

    http://mostlysignssomeportents.tumblr.com/post/69483772685/one-young-woman-who-got-in-a-heated-argument-with

    http://prospect.org/article/good-mens-rights-movement-hard-find

    Men’s Rights: We Don’t Want Them http://wp.me/p268OL-9A via @wordpressdotcom

    GET STARTED!!!

    • Francis Roy says:

      I should have known this first. Your’e a part of MRM so your reaction is justified.

      Irrelevant. I responded to your article’s ideas, and from the perspective of an Egalitarian an Anti-Feminist and then a Men’s Rights Activist. The latter is no more important to the ideas than being Indian is to yours.

      Thats the difference between you and me. I didn’t even care squat ,to search your blog and try bashing you up but u tried doing that

      Actually, I wrote the article so that you would address the points that I put out. I didn’t “bash” you, I offered counter-arguments to your ideas.

      ..maybe coz’ the only purpose of MRMs is to bash women , especially feminists.

      It is evident that you’ve not bothered to read the article. You are speaking out of ignorance. Had you taken a moment of your time, you would have seen this to be false.

      Gives them a feeling they conquered the world. Pretty good living in your fool’s paradise haan ? As if doing that will solve your issues.

      Petulance unworthy of one who claims pride in her ideology. Can you stand up for your ideas, or not?

      Instead of analyzing my blog, stanza by stanza and accusing me of plagiarism ( Which din’t even happen in the first place ,since i cited the reference),

      Sigh. You aren’t the first feminist I’ve dealt with. If you had bothered to read the article, you would have noticed a link to a screen capture of Akrtia plagiarizing jezebel.com. So now you are on record for a) plagiarism, b) covering it up and, c) lying about it. This does not make you look good.

      However, to the main point. My response was an analysis of your post and the ideas contained within. Why don’t you address the ideas?

      why don’t you give your vision of Men’s Rights Movement?

      I have when I wrote the following.

      “The Men’s Rights Movement has arisen due to the inequities that men face in politics, law and culture to correct the issues.” and “The Men’s Rights Movement is not anti-woman in the least. It is pro men and boys, and pro women and girls. It is in fact, nothing more than a swell of people who believe that all humans deserve fair treatment decently observing that the current legal and social environment not only do not support this goal, but actively works against it. The Men’s Rights Movement, ironically, seeks to achieve what First Wave Feminists claimed to have stood for: equitable rights […]. We also bring a concept novel to most Feminists: that with equal rights, come equal obligations and duties.”

      But the issue at discussion is not men’s rights, but of your ideas regarding the accuracy and value of Feminist inspired ideas.

      Actually, MRM should not stand for Mens Rights Movement. It should stand for MISOGYNIST RIGHTS MOVEMENT. suits it.

      You have yet to address a single idea that I’ve put forward. Name calling, especially when it’s simply not true, does nothing to support your points, or to correct mine. If you don’t hate cats, how offensive is it to be called a cat hater? Now why don’t you address the arguments instead of your perception of my and other people’s character?

      Its actually hilarious how you pick up on individual people here just to show your presence. I feel like sympathising with you. Nobody’s there to hear you. So sad. Plus i have also have a feeling that either the women in your life have really messed u up or you just don’t have any and that is so sad. Hence, your generalization and your reaction.

      Again, a low-level attack at social status. Is this how feminists change the world? I contend that yes, this is exactly feminist behaviour: ignore the facts, ignore reality and make it personal. If you cannot handle one person’s counter-arguments on a blog, how will you handle yourself when you meet someone of importance in the real world to whom you’ll have no choice but to defend your arguments?

      I insist remove the word “apologetic” from the title coz’ it does not make any sense there. Use the word ‘Bitch’. Will give more weightage to your analysis. You’ve worked so hard at it so shouldn’t go waste. Thank you for proving my stance right – The F Word scares the hell out of you and also a huge THANK U for analysing my post and tagging my name on your blog, it has a wider audience now!!

      Seriously. You’ve had someone take the time to read your thoughts, analyse them, and offer a response and the best you can come up with this churlishness? Focus on the ideas, not the person.

      P.S. Here are views on MRM’s by some MEN themselves. I’m sure you’ll have time to visit their blog and do exactly the same analysis as you did to mine. It’ll be super interesting to see how men themselves give you feedback . REAL men!!

      I’m not addressing other people’s opinions, but yours. Don’t rely on others to do your thinking and writing for you. Feminists often complain about “not having a voice” or of “being silenced”. Not only am I listening, but I’m listening carefully and putting you center stage. Take one of my points. Take the one that you believe is weakest and offer me a better counter-argument. If your argument is better than mine, I will concede it. Then take the next idea and so forth. You are a strong, independent, self-actualized thinking person, are you not? You are able to engage in simple discourse over ideas that you hold very dear, aren’t you? Stand up for your ideas. Miewling that I’m a bad bad man, name calling and playing little status games does not make your points. If you believe what you’ve written, stand up for it. If you cannot defend your ideas on the internet of all places, where can you? Can you at all?

      This isn’t a popularity contest, it is a contest of the better idea that will be used to change the world. Show me your own original arguments that are better than mine, and then, overall, weave them together to make a case that is more compelling to the disinterested observer than mine is.

      I await your thoughtful response.

      • Akriti says:

        YOUR’E INFALLIBLE DUDE. I’M FLAWED!! ISN’T THAT GREAT ?

        GO BE HAPPY FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE NOW. U JUST WON THE WAR OF SEXES STARTED BY YOU.SO YIPEEEEEEEEEE!!!

        Kindly abstain contacting me after this . Neither will i get influenced by you nor will you so not worth it.

        I’m just glad there are so so many men out there who actually have a life . Way better than you MRM folks.

        Best part is you did not have the guts to take on the guys i mentioned to you. You are happy taking it out on me. O boy that is like real strength. Feel proud.

        I was actually hoping u wud take on them but i’m assuming u chickened out. SYMPATHIES !!
        LIVE IN YOUR FOOL’S PARADISE .SUITS YOU.
        Wasted a lot of time on a complete wannabe like you. Not wasting any more.

        Never ever show me your presence here. Don’t want my blog to be filled with pig shit.

      • Francis Roy says:

        /me shakes his head.

        What shameful behaviour. You’re given the opportunity to stand up for what you believe in, to make your case to a non-believer that can be swayed by better arguments, and you end on a temper tantrum. You aren’t the first I’ve seen of this kind.

        As far as not “taking on” the other people, first, you are handing off your own responsibility to another. Second, it has been less an a couple hours since I’ve seen your comment. While I do have time to respond to comments between tasks, I don’t have the time to read and think about entire websites and then offer thoughtful cogent replies in that short amount of time. Your response is unreasonable, as is your position.

        I believe that readers will be able to determine the value of the arguments, whether you reply to them or not.

    • Anthony Carillo says:

      Akriti’s sock puppet says: These links are too good man. Great work putting them here. Who would want to be a part of Men Rights Movement after reading them. Best thing is men actually are the writers to these articles. Time to re-think – is the men’s rights movement a hate campaign against women ? Hell yes.

  3. Akshat Jain says:

    After reading both these write ups, i felt why are you so eager to impose your view point on another ? I’m a man myself but i’m not a misogynist. I’m egalitarian. The lady made some really valid points up there. You too actually but not in the sense of your own. Appears you are trying to convince. I’ve lately been researching a lot on Men’s Rights Movement. Some aspects are good. Make sense. But others are disappointing. I feel the movement should be about acknowledging and fighting for men’s rights , not opposing women’s rights. That’ll dilute the movement.

    • Francis Roy says:

      After reading both these write ups, i felt why are you so eager to impose your view point on another ?

      Why do you see a response to someone’s thoughts as an imposition?

      I’m a man myself but i’m not a misogynist. I’m egalitarian.

      Same here.

      The lady made some really valid points up there.

      Which ones?

      You too actually but not in the sense of your own.

      Can you rephrase this? I don’t get your meaning.

      Appears you are trying to convince.

      Yes, that is the point of making an argument.

      I’ve lately been researching a lot on Men’s Rights Movement. Some aspects are good. Make sense.

      What do you agree with?

      But others are disappointing.

      What do you disagree with?

      I feel the movement should be about acknowledging and fighting for men’s rights ,

      I agree.

      not opposing women’s rights.

      I also agree, and I would point out that the Men’s Rights Movement in no way opposes women’s rights. Please be very clear about the two following distinctions:

      1) Women and feminism are not the same thing.
      2) Feminism and women’s rights are not the same thing.

      Women are people. Feminism is a political ideology. The maintenance of women’s rights does not require feminism.

      That’ll dilute the movement.

      I agree. I will make an observation. Did you notice how poorly that Akriti handled simple argumentation? There are Men’s Rights Activists who do as poor a job as she did. If you review my post, you’ll observe that I granted her lee-way in that a single representative is not a reflection of the whole. Just as she is a poor speaker for her side, there are poor speakers for men’s rights. Note that I gave her every opportunity–one which she can still avail herself of–to make solid and cogent counter arguments. Read this: When men espouse bigotry toward women – the reality check. You’ll find me putting another MRA in his place too.

      It’s about people treating each other fairly in a real-world setting, not about ideology.

      PS: I will not be able to reply until much later tonight, or tomorrow, due to time constraints.

  4. Akshat Jain says:

    No offence but you need to give concise replies. I am not comfortable answering the way you do because you pick up on everything. I mean that works for you , not me actually. So will try to be as concise as i can. MRM you say is about men’s rights ? If it is why is it becoming so abusive. That behaviour is not acceptable to any sane person. If you do the same things what some feminists do ,whats the difference? Why have these movements have to be anti – men or anti- women, why can’t they not be pro-men and pro women? It should be about human rights. Equality isn’t a copyright of just one gender. Its for both . The biggest problem with mens rights movement is that it is appearing unnecessary, uninformed, and a burden to everyone. All the abuse is pathetic. Your blog still makes some sense but majority of the people supporting MRM are biased. I’m not okay with that.

    As for the lady’s blog up there, it made sense to me because she has not once in her blog accused men . Nothing has been generalized. It gives a sense to the reader that the blog is pro woman but it isn’t anti men. I wasn’t a fan of feminism. Now i am. I agree men are victims sometimes but you cannot say that men are victims because women are empowered. Men are victims because of men too. The lady’s blog wasn’t abusive at all. Your comment on the other hand is nasty, like you are trying to prove yourself so hard. I’m a very keen reader of gender issues . Infact i’m going to start my own blog on that very soon. Came to your blog by chance. Read 3 write ups by you. All in response by somebody else. Which is a good thing. Saw your discussion here in the comments section with the lady . Then visited her blog. Right now saw that section of your blog where you have mentioned that one should comment seriously and not like the comment posted there. You should not expect people to be rational with you when you are nasty with them. Was looking forward to discuss a lot about MRM with you but now i feel you will not be able to provide an objective perspective on that. If i argue with you , you will not be able to sink in my point of view So i should go elsewhere. Frankly the reason i read your blog in the first place (though i was genuinely interested later )was because that picture right on the top was very attractive. Now when i have read the thoughts of the voice behind the picture, i’d want to subscribe her blog. I” be reader to any place which is not biased. Best of luck with your movement. Keep writing.

    • Francis Roy says:

      Thanks for your reply. I’ll do my best to address it either tonight or tomorrow.

    • Francis Roy says:

      Akriti, even though you are using a sock puppet account to write this, (1. the common misuse of punctuation across your sock puppets 2. Same IP and 3. email host) I’ll answer your question nonetheless.

      Understand: this is not about you, but the ideas that you promote. You have two problems. The first, is that you are mentally lazy, the second is that you are dishonest. I don’t say this to piss you off, but to show you that someone even thousands of miles away can see though you. Your attempts to cover your ego have utterly destroyed your credibility. And now you have demonstrated that a self-proclaimed feminist is a plagiarizer, an imposter, a liar, someone who throws temper tantrums and finds it more important for her to look like she’s right in her own eyes than to actually be right. That having been said I am willing to write it off as the simple immaturity of youth, rather than a permanent mark on your character. I have grey hair (what is left of it) and you don’t. I get to do that.

      No offence but you need to give concise replies. I am not comfortable answering the way you do because you pick up on everything. I mean that works for you , not me actually.

      I understand, and yes, precision of thought is important to me. Isn’t it to you? How on earth can you carry on a logical argument that will sway journalists, judges, lawyers, politicians and the average person who can parse a sentence if you cannot concentrate your mind to express yourself with clear focus? I work very hard at developing a certain clarity of thought. And it is work.

      So will try to be as concise as i can. MRM you say is about men’s rights ? If it is why is it becoming so abusive. That behaviour is not acceptable to any sane person. If you do the same things what some feminists do ,whats the difference?

      First, look up the word “abuse” in the dictionary. Now, tell me, in which sense do yo mean the word? Copy, paste and cite. Now give me an example of where you believe that I have abused you. What specifically have I said that is in any way abusive? Your being pissed off at having ideas corrected is not “abuse”. Any feelings of offence that you may feel is merely that: a feeling of offence.

      Why have these movements have to be anti – men or anti- women, why can’t they not be pro-men and pro women? It should be about human rights. Equality isn’t a copyright of just one gender. Its for both .

      First and foremost, I am an egalitarian. This is why I am also a Men’s Rights Activist. I believe that men are as valuable and as important as women are, and vice versa. When I look at the cause of many problems in the world, I see that Feminism as is currently practised as being a tremendous source of bigotry which leads to harmful actions. This is a large part of many of the problems that men face, so, after a life of experience with feminists and a deep inspection of the ideology, have come to the position that Feminism is harmful, so I also adopted an anti-Feminist position. It is not about men and women, but about an ideology that poisons our society to think of women as oppressed victims and males as violent, sexual deviants and criminals. Look at your ideology with a skeptical eye. I assure you, that none spend as much time looking for holes in my thinking than I do.

      The biggest problem with mens rights movement is that it is appearing unnecessary, uninformed, and a burden to everyone.

      When you say this, do you mean me, personally, or the average person who claims to the an MRA? Tell me more about what you mean. How does it appear unnecessary? How is it a burden, from your point of view? Be precise, no hand waving.

      All the abuse is pathetic. Your blog still makes some sense but majority of the people supporting MRM are biased. I’m not okay with that.

      Biased in what way? Bias: an inclination of temperament or outlook; especially : a personal and sometimes unreasoned judgment : prejudice. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bias

      I will partially agree with you. First, you have no basis for claiming that the majority of people supporting the MRM are prejudiced. You do have a basis for claiming that some are. Then again, you have just demonstrated bias in the very same sentence where you accuse MRAs of being so. I’m willing to bet a dime to a donut that you have done a very limited amount of research on the MRM, if any.

      So, if MRAs can be biased, and feminists can be biased, what do we do? We go for the truth. We use the best facts that are available to us and exercise our best critical thinking. Critical thinking is a learned skill, not a natural one, so I’m usually tempted to give people the benefit of the doubt, but you have to be coachable. You have to be willing to let go of your own shit before you ask another to let go of theirs. If genuine equality is what you want, both for yourself and the world, this is non-negotiable.

      As for the lady’s blog up there, it made sense to me because she has not once in her blog accused men . Nothing has been generalized. It gives a sense to the reader that the blog is pro woman but it isn’t anti men.

      Nor have I accused any women of anything. The discussion is not about men, or women. It is about the value of the ideas of Feminism. Feminism is a political ideology. It is about ideas that we carry in our head, and that we act on.

      I wasn’t a fan of feminism. Now i am. I agree men are victims sometimes but you cannot say that men are victims because women are empowered.

      I have never made this claim, nor do I agree with it. Conversely, one cannot say that women are victims because some men have some powers. Do you accept this?

      Men are victims because of men too.

      Yes. And women are victims because of women too. Do you accept this?

      Men hurt women. Women hurt women. Men hurt men. Women hurt men. Every one of these are true. Modern Feminism sees only “Men hurt women”. It is THE primary message of modern day Feminism. Egalitarians look at all four. Men’s Rights Activists also look at all four, and because there are tonnes of organizations and money thrown at protecting women, and little to none for men, we work to address the part that nobody wants to believe exists: that men are hurt as well.

      The lady’s blog wasn’t abusive at all. Your comment on the other hand is nasty, like you are trying to prove yourself so hard.

      I never claimed that “the lady’s” post was abusive. I offered counter-arguments to the ones you have made. I’m not trying to prove myself. I am trying to persuade every reader of the article that the arguments that have been made in favour of feminism are bad arguments, and should be discarded in favour of superior arguments: that men and women have equal moral value, that both should enjoy equivalent rights while being subject to equivalent duties and obligations and that all should be respected for their own merits and character, rather than because of physical variants. This is a message that if accepted, forces those with intellectual integrity to abandon Feminism.

      Came to your blog by chance. Read 3 write ups by you. All in response by somebody else. Which is a good thing. Saw your discussion here in the comments section with the lady . Then visited her blog. Right now saw that section of your blog where you have mentioned that one should comment seriously and not like the comment posted there.

      Did you take the time to read what I said? Essentially, I was saying that agreement with me is not important, and that I welcome an exchange of ideas, but there is a minimum level of discourse. A temper tantrum does not meet this minimum level.

      You should not expect people to be rational with you when you are nasty with them.

      First, you have yet to provide any precision as to “nasty”, but let’s set that aside. I do accept the point that some people will react emotionally. I contend, however, that this is not a free pass to turn off one’s brain.

      Was looking forward to discuss a lot about MRM with you but now i feel you will not be able to provide an objective perspective on that.

      Rather than feeling about it, test it.

      What you can expect from me is honesty. And you can accept that I am ruthlessly honest with myself. If you make a good point, I will acknowledge it. But I won’t let bad points go out of politeness, unless they are irrelevant to the issue.

      If i argue with you , you will not be able to sink in my point of view So i should go elsewhere.

      I get the sense that you are saying that you don’t believe I am empathetic, that I can’t see from your point of view. If you want to speak of personal issues, I can, or at least, I can try. When it comes to impersonal ideas, however empathy is the wrong tool to use. Understand: what I’m going after is the truth. I am thinking of two friends that I hold in very high regard because of one trait they share: they don’t let me get away with errors. I hate being corrected, but I’m always willing to accept genuine corrections as a gift. Less weaknesses lead to more strength. The stronger, the more correct idea should be the ones we use to create our society.

      Frankly the reason i read your blog in the first place (though i was genuinely interested later )was because that picture right on the top was very attractive. Now when i have read the thoughts of the voice behind the picture, i’d want to subscribe her blog. I” be reader to any place which is not biased.

      Well, I can understand that one might one to click on the picture of a young woman that one might find attractive, especially when it is one’s own–but that doesn’t really address the issues at hand, does it? “I accept her arguments because she has a nice picture” is a terrible way to decide what ideas you will use to change the world.

      Best of luck with your movement. Keep writing.

      Thank you. And I welcome all your future thoughtful comments.

  5. Anaala Richardson says:

    Wow…this was embarrassing to read. Francis, I love how well thought out your responses are. I’m not a feminist but a humanist because I have come to the conclusion that men are getting the short end of the stick in our society. As someone who was part of a traditional Hindu home I am intimately acquainted with the lower end of the spectrum when it comes to male/female relations. But I learned that the things being imposed on me was the will of a few bad apples and no way indicative of men as a whole.

    I find that your blog gives me a fresh perspective because unlike many bloggers you do not resort to personal attacks to get your point across. It inspires me as a person to deal with things in a more rational manner. Your analysis of her essay was spot on. I’m saddened that she chose to respond in such a childish manner.

    Also if possible would you mind recommending some good books on this topic to me?

    P.S. Apologies for any mistakes. Still trying ti get used to my new phone.

  6. Francis Roy says:

    Thanks for the feedback, Anaala. I’m very pleased to hear that this approach is persuasive to you. That makes my day.

    Book recommendations. Which books you choose depends on your interest and approach. I, as a man in North America will have different experiences that a woman in India might. [Addendum: correct me and forgive me if I’ve gotten the sex wrong :) ]

    The book that most influenced me, those that re-started me was Why Men are the Way They Are, and The Myth of Male Power, both written by Warren Farrell. The first, I would say fulfill a role similar to that of The Feminine Mystique, by Betty Friedan in the sense that the book is an attempt to elucidate current societal assumptions and how they relate to an individual’s daily life. I would claim that Warren Farrell’s books are more clinically descriptive than Friedan’s simple list of grievances.

    What I appreciate about each of Warren Farrell’s books, is that is is unbiased and unflinchingly fair to women and men both. As someone who worked on the board of The National Organization for Women for some years, he knows both sides and is as charitable to women as he is to men.

    I no longer refer to myself as an Egalitarian, a Humanist or any such thing. The person who persuaded me was someone who used an absolutely horrible argument to support Feminism. The argument was thus: “There is no reverse-word for sexist or for racist, so the term is Feminist.” The language was horrible. Had he used clear vocabulary, he would have said “There is no antonym for sexist and racist, therefor it is Feminist.” I looked it up.

    There IS an antonym to the words sexist and racist, there are two: unbiased and impartial.

    This is what I try to bring to my daily life. When I meet a stranger for the first time, listen to someone’s arguments, read an opinion piece. This does not require any ideology. It simplifies one’s life, and, I believe, makes one far more effective than those who are burdened with the emotional obligation to remain consistent to a large framework of ideas.

    In short, just be decent, as best as we can.

    • Anaala Richardson says:

      Yes you got the gender right 😊 though I reside in the Caribbean. My family were imports during the time when the West Indies transitioned from slavery to indentureship. The books by Warren Farrell sound very interesting. I will definitely try to find a copy of each.

      I tend to prefer things that come from an objective point of view. It is much easier to grasp what the author is trying to convey that way.

      I couldn’t agree more. I also prefer to simply do and be good. I ended up using the label humanist as a sort of defense. Because in my country I am other and other is not welcomed. Other in this case meaning irreligious and pansexual. There is a sort of stigma attached to it. So I end up identifying as humanist because its simpler. Do you have a goodreads account or one on a similar service? I would very much like to peruse your library.

      • Francis Roy says:

        Sorry, just hard to tell with an icon and I’m unfamiliar with the name. Warren Farrell bases his books on factual research, rather than some ideology. This is one of the things that attracted me to his book. Had it been simple maundering about the plight of man, I would not have been hooked on him.

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