MGTOW: the conversation that won’t die

Recently, Tarn asked that some of us who consider ourselves MGTOW pipe up on on a comment thread. I did.  And now here it is.

1.A MGTOW must be a MAN- This is given, no if ands or buts.

Yes. It is incredibly obvious, but sometimes the obvious must be spoken out loud.

2.A MGTOW should be for non-traditional marriage-

I don’t think so, although this, like point 1 is one of the key elements that make up MGTOW. I personally don’t believe in marriage, or even live-in arrangements.

3. A MGTOW should be non-religious

No, you’re reaching too far. You are attempting to conflate some ultimate form of mental freedom to the simple response of saying “no” to a variety of legal and cultural factors.

4. A MGTOW should not be a female hater-A MGTOW cannot be bitter towards women.

Bull. Some men hate, some men don’t–and it has nothing to do with a response to legal and cultural choices.

5. A MGTOW should have an open mind

Again, no. You’re imposing your ideas on what you think other people should embody.

6. A MGTOW should be willing to stand alone.

See my few previous points.

Much of what you’re trying to do is to come up with some ideology of “What MGTOW is.” Don’t try to create rules for men who are merely doing as the see if for their own lives :)

MGTOW is descriptive, not prescriptive.

MGTOW is not a club, or a group, or an ideology. It is a response to the current circumstances in our society. Men are responding with a cost-benefit analysis, and have come to the conclusion that despite the trade-offs, he is better served by limiting his vulnerability to legal or cultural conditions. That’s all. Calling me MGTOW is like calling me “Tall Guy” or “Bearded Guy” or “White Guy.” You can redefine tall, bearded or white in any sense that you like, but it will not change that which is being described: a man that makes certain life choices.

Imagine that you live in a wild-forest. There are many people who live in the forest, and about 50% of those who do, get maimed or killed because of falling branches. Some have noticed that when they are in a clearing, that less branches fall on them, so they choose to remain in clear-spots. After a while, many of them notice that others are doing so as well, and come up with a handy term: Clear Spotters.

What would you say to someone that tried to dictate what a Clear Spotter must think, feel, do and stand for? They’re just trying to avoid getting bonked by branches. That’s all. And they have nothing else in common.

Even if they don’t call themselves a Clear Spotter, people can still choose to sit in clear spots and be doing the same thing that many Clear Spotters are.

My take on MGTOW is simple.

I, as a man in the western world, in 2014, believe that it is harmful to my interests to accept the role of women’s protectors, providers, or to allow women access to my fertility.

I believe that this is the simplest choice for myself, and have found that many Clear Spotters believe the same. I don’t impose it on you. You may not agree, and exclaim “Then you are not MGTOW!”

So what? I’m still sitting in a clear spot. It doesn’t matter what words you use.

Here’s mah meme o th’matter.

MGTOW in a nutshell: not your protector, not your provider, not your sex-object.

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17 thoughts on “MGTOW: the conversation that won’t die

  1. Tarnished says:

    Thanks for the pingback, Francis.

    For what it’s worth, I agree with what you say here other than #4 to an extent. As I said in my email to MGTOWtrendsetta (the guy who actually wrote these points), I just fear that men who feel angry/bitter toward women to a large degree are still in a mindset where they could theoretically be controlled by them. I tend more towards Spawny’s view, that the initial anger/frustration/sadness that a man experiences upon taking the red pill is a valid response and should be respected…but then it should eventually be worked through. Indifference and a refusal to be a fertility provider/protector/financial provider is better than spending years with high blood pressure and potentially poor mental/emotional health.

    Just my 2 cents.

    • Francis Roy says:

      My sense of his request was “What are the traits that one should embody to be considered MGTOW.” That is the wrong question. Too many are trying to turn it into “what does it take to be a healthy male?” They aren’t the same question.

      The question might have been better posed as “What are the essential common behaviours that we observe in those men who refer to themselves as MGTOW?”

      Men GOING is a verb, not a noun. And where are they going? Not along. Their own way.

      If I get married, I could lose everything. I don’t want to lose everything, so I won’t get married. If I make a baby, I could lose everything, so, I won’t make a baby. I am treated like I am an ATM and a bullet-catcher, I don’t like this, so I refuse to go along.

      That is the essential point of view that the word MGTOW points to. Nothing more.

      MGTOW is simply a convenient label to point the the action that more and more men are taking to protect their own assets (including their asses!)

      The difficulty is that people insist on creating or appending some framework of ideas when none is required.

      • Tarnished says:

        “Too many are trying to turn it into “what does it take to be a healthy male?” They aren’t the same question.”
        -I knew there was a reason I liked his points, but then when I read your response I realized I’d committed the same mistake he did…which you eloquently explained here. Thank you for that.

        “If I get married, I could lose everything. I don’t want to lose everything, so I won’t get married. If I make a baby, I could lose everything, so, I won’t make a baby. I am treated like I am an ATM and a bullet-catcher, I don’t like this, so I refuse to go along.”
        -All true, unfortunately. But it’s better to know the risks and make a fully educated decision based on all information than to remain ignorant and be caught unaware. This is why I talk about MGTOW so much. After all, I personally don’t have a horse in this race. But the fact that I know what women talk like when men aren’t around opened my eyes to the misandry inherent in our current system. Some may say I’m a traitor to my sex…I say I’m giving my gender a fighting chance.

      • Francis Roy says:

        It’s a subtle thing, I admit. And I’d say that 90%+ of the posts that I read on the matter do the same.

        All true, unfortunately. But it’s better to know the risks and make a fully educated decision based on all information than to remain ignorant and be caught unaware.

        I completely agree, and this is true for everything. As for being “a traitor to your sex,” my response is quite simple: one doesn’t need to take sides to be fair to all.

      • Tarnished says:

        “One doesn’t need to take sides to be fair to all”.

        With your permission, I’m stealing this quote to use in my email signature. :)

      • Francis Roy says:

        Thunderclaps and a booming voice:

        I, Francis Roy, under the authority of all that is Good and Holy, grant you full, explicit, unlimited and royalty-free permission, to use this quote, subject to section 32, subsection 12, paragraph 8, item 3 of the Meme Transmission Act of 2014. Go forth and sin no more, my child.

        /me makes some vague holy sign-like hand gesture, then *poof!* vanishes into the ether.

      • Tarnished says:

        Ha ha! Francis, you are too awesome. Surely I am not worthy… *grin*

  2. Ed Schultz says:

    I find it disturbing that some guys are judging others as not MGTOW enough. Or asking was I being a bad MGTOW because I chatted up a woman at the bar. I see MGTOW as about looking at how traditionalism has fucked men over and jettisoning anything that no longer serves men well. My pet peeve with men is all the hazing we do of each other. As I see it it needs to stop brother. I did it for a lot of years as a rig hand. Made the switch to directional drilling (DD) and have done well enough as a DD that I end up getting a lot of trainees. Teach them everything you know, especially tell them about the fuck ups you’ve made so they don’t repeat them, it doesn’t cost you anything. Who knows if he is a real super star and you treated him right he will not mind you drafting in his wake. Or won’t automatically jump to the the conclusion your a dumb ass if you call up with a problem; have you ever seen…

    • Francis Roy says:

      I find it disturbing that some guys are judging others as not MGTOW enough. Or asking was I being a bad MGTOW because I chatted up a woman at the bar.

      Yeah, people can be assholes that way. I was about to write that men are, but we’re all like that.

      Teach them everything you know, especially tell them about the fuck ups you’ve made so they don’t repeat them, it doesn’t cost you anything.

      Again, yes. This falls under the category of “being decent.”

  3. Spawny Get says:

    Hi Francis,

    any chance of you putting your website’s name on the nutshell image and giving me permission to use it as the image for Tarn’s MGTOW post on my blog?

    Love the image and the message. My email address on this comment is real if you feel need to contact me

    • Francis Roy says:

      Just use the image as is. At some point, I intend on moving my blog to francisroy.ca. I just don’t have the time (and honestly, often, the motivation) to shod my own children. If you like, you can link back to me.

    • Francis Roy says:

      Actually, Spawny, give me an hour to make some adjustments to the image. It has been bugging me for a while. Count 60 minutes from the time-stamp of this comment, then go ahead.

      • Spawny Get says:

        Take your time, thanks.

        You’re already on my ‘Interesting’ links page. I linked to this post in comments in Tarn’s post at mine. Because you’re worth it ;)

        Cheers

      • Francis Roy says:

        That’s very kind of you. I’m feeling all warm and fuzzy. :)

      • Spawny Get says:

        you’re welcome. have you got a different preference for section? Top post on my frontpage is the links post.

      • Francis Roy says:

        No, that’s fine, thank you. I know that as a blogger that I should be greedy for placement and calculating more and more ways to attract a broader audience, but my blog isn’t commercial in nature. I’m happy to find intelligent and reasonable people with whom I can discuss whatever is on my mind, or theirs.

  4. Spawny Get says:

    “my blog isn’t commercial in nature. I’m happy to find intelligent and reasonable people with whom I can discuss whatever is on my mind, or theirs.”

    yes. me too. I wanted somewhere to mix a little fun in with the red-pill

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