I will appear as a guest on The Magic Sandwich Show, on Sunday, July 12th, 2015.
We will be discussing The Men’s Movement, and a number of related topics. It will be an introductory level talk. Expect many definitions, distinctions and clarifications. Come and join us!
Another conversation I’ve had with a MGTOW.
tl;dr? Your comments are reflective of a very broad swath of men, whom I’d like to address indirectly as I speak with you. Much of your argument is typical of the kind that many MGTOW make: “I don’t know how it can be done, therefore it cannot.” This is an argument from lack of knowledge, and of hopelessness.
They then follow up with ” I will focus on what I can control: my life.” I do encourage men to take charge of their lives and to put themselves first.
At some point, however, one must measure when one’s life is stable and steady enough, to be willing to venture out of the comfort zones, even only if by small increments. My intent is not to convert you to an MRA, but to encourage you to replace hopelessness and helplessness with what MGTOW is really about: men living full rich lives as valuable and self-respecting men.
Forgive the length, the conversation is worth it. Wish we could do this via Hangouts. Interested? Contact me, and we’ll set it up.
“Having men speaking out doesn´t mean that laws will change. I have a hard time to see where things are getting better.”
You are right that discussion does not guarantee results, but no discussion certainly guarantees no results. Having women speak out didn’t mean that laws would change. But they have, haven’t they? I can provide you examples of where people speaking out has created change. I refer you to the Canadian Association for Equality, who have for the first time, since Earl Silverman, have create a shelter for abused men. That isn’t a law, but it’s a change. I could provide you with names of lawyers who actively specialize in men’s issues. That’s a next step. I can refer you Mike Buchanan who has started a political party in the UK based on men’s issues and is running for political positions. Step by step, all starting with talk. Give it time, we’ve only just begun, don’t write things off before we step off of the blocks.
“Instead we have the Yes-means-yes-law and some countries are introducing new laws where men can now get in trouble for flirting with a woman in public. Or airlines who require single traveling men not to sit next to young children.”
Yes, we have two groups, one, being a very-well funded massive power, and another simultaneously operating fledgling movement. Put one drop of red dye in a glass of water. The water is no longer 100% transparent. Add another drop. How long until we recognize that the water has a reddish hue? Remember that we are changing societies–plural. This is a generational task. We are doing this for our grand-children (and hopefully we’ll get to enjoy some of the results.)
“And what is that critical mass? 25%, 50%, 90%?”
That is excellent question–and one should be researched. How does one measure “critical mass?” That we do not know, at the time of this conversation, does not imply that it cannot be done. That would be an argument from lack of knowledge. I’m going to do some research on this for two reasons. 1. I want to know. 2. Knowing and being able to measure would allow us a concrete goal to strive for.
“I think there is more to it then rational thoughts. Biology and the urge of most men to care for women and to protect them at any cost is a huge factor as well.”
Oh yes. We are trying to change hearts and minds–in that order.
“I remember Cenk saying something like “Even if a woman hits you first, you don´t hit her back! That is just different!” And many men feel the same way.”
Yes, he’s entitled to hold very ignorant and thoughtless beliefs. Now, put him in a context with 1000 people who vociferously disagree and see how long he holds to that belief. Hearts and minds… Social pressure, psychology, emotion. It is all part of the equation.
Francis said: “This is very dense with assumptions.”
“I have talked to a large number of women about equality and feminism and while some of them might agree that feminism has taken things much too far, they often refuse to acknowledge that certain “facts” that are propagated by feminists are in fact just myths or flat out lies. Like the “gender wage gap” for example. You can produce statistics from official sources and those women will still claim that there is a gender wage gap and that women are “oppressed”. Again, this is not something rational in my opinion. It seems to be that those women instictively know that being the “victim” will benefit them and they won´t let go of it, no matter how many facts you present. They will constantly change the subject or end the discussion with the usual attacks: “You hate women! You have a problem with women! You are a sexist!” etc…”
Yes. And gravity exists. We do two things: use it, and find work-arounds. Ever ponder on how amazing suspended bridges are?
Francis said: “Cenk is not an enemy, he’s someone who doesn’t accept the argument…”
“Men like him will never change their behavior unless they have been burned badly themself. Sometimes not even then. At least that is my experience. There are some exceptions though…”
But we don’t know that for a fact. If we assume that this is so, as an irrefutable given, we aren’t likely to act on it, are we? Cenk is only one–and notice how many disagree with him. We don’t need 100% acceptance, we need critical mass. I can’t measure it yet, but I can see that it is growing.
Francis said: “MGTOW is not “the” solution, it is part of the solution.”
“I agree with you that MGTOW doesn´t provide a universal solution. But many MGTOW men probably don´t believe in a political solution (like myself). They just try to improve their life and stay safe. And that is a more practical approach then hoping or fighting for a political change, at least in my opinion. It is a solution for ME because it works for ME.”
Full disclosure, here: I am both an MRA and MGTOW. I was MGTOW before the term existed and only became MRA when I saw others doing it, and had an example to go by. MGTOW don’t believe in direct action. I get that, I didn’t for years either. You say “a more practical approach then hoping or fighting for a political change.”
Hoping and fighting for are two different things. The only reason that I was MGTOW and not MRA was because I thought “If I don’t know how it can be done, it can’t be.”
“I have nothing against the MRM, I just think it will not work.”
Two observations. The first is that you are looking at the MRM as though it is a singular static tool. It isn’t. The MRM is comprised of men and women, of all walks of life, of all psychological bents, of all skill, drive, talent and passion levels. The second is that you are again repeating “I can’t see it, so I don’t think it will work, therefore I will not invest in it.” That’s fair enough, and you are entitled to think that way–but it isn’t sound thinking, it is an argument from ignorance. You may not be one of those naturally proactive people, a mover-and-shaker by nature, neither am I, but I do not accept “I don’t know the solution, so I won’t try.” I’m not judging you for it, nor am I asking you to take action. I am asking you to think more deeply about your reasoning, even if it is only to stop thinking as someone who is oppressed.
“And one reason is because women have more leverage in our society. You can´t bargain with someone who is in a superior position. That´s the way I see it.”
Of course you can–if you have the right leverage. It might be financial, psychological, physical, etc. Sun Tzu is quoted as saying “Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win” and “To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy’s resistance without fighting.” You have already lost in your mind, and so retreat. Our “war” is not won though violence, but influence. Take one person, and help them change one idea. That’s your drop of dye in the water. The first battle, however, is against our sense of weakness, powerlessness and hopelessness.
“Thanks anyway for your comment. Even if we don´t agree with each other, I always enjoy having a civil and respectful discussion like that. And that is the reason I gave your comment a thumbs up, not because I agree with you.”
Imagine that: people having civil discourse and enjoying it! I encourage you to continue doing do. It makes us more effective and more fun to be listened to.
A commenter in a thread said _”I sympathize with the MRM insofar as they fight for mens rights. I just think that they will not get very far.”_
Yet, all evidence is to the contrary. We have more men speaking out now than we ever have had before. The result is that we have more people acting on it.
_”And the reason are people like Cenk.”_
Not at all. People like Cenk are merely what the marketing industry would call “a late adopter.” Given critical mass, he, and those who hold his points of view will also change. This is how ideas get propagated in a very large mass of ideas. Changing public consciousness takes time, first because humans need time to change their ideas and second, because there are so many humans.
_”Most women are not willing to give men equal rights. (And this includes especially reproductive rights!)”_
This is very dense with assumptions. First, rights are not “given,” they are accepted then respected, then acted upon. When we speak of rights, such as reproductive rights, for example, what we’re speaking of is legislation that leads to the enactment and enforcement of policy. There is a process to these things. The order is such: academic introduction and debate, public acceptance, political acceptance, legislation and encoding into policy, followed up the encoding and enforcement of policy at the local level (in the bureaucracy, then down to cops and social workers, for example.)
Once all of this is in play, there’s a number of years where the specifics have to be worked out in court to refine the issues via challenges and decisions.
_”And a large number of men are mens worst enemy. Cenk is the best example for that.”_
Cenk is not an enemy, he’s someone who doesn’t accept the argument, whether his arguments are good or bad (I think they’re atrocious.) That he is male or female has no bearing on the matter.
Where men _are_ “enemies” to each other is in day-by-day activities where men piss on each other, or fail to stand up for each other in a context. In a conversation at a party, at a job interview, by the cop who just goes with the flow or in a comment thread where people scream out “pussy beggar!”
MGTOW is not “the” solution, it is part of the solution. MGTOW simply remove support from the current system: they don’t feed the enemy, they deny the enemy resources. MRAs are the warriors on the field, sword and shield in hand against those who would harm us. MGTOW is more passive, but is valuable. A hungry, unsheltered opponent is a weaker opponent which makes the job easier for the warriors in the field.
It is time to stop thinking of each other as opposing armies and to think of ourselves as mutually supporting specialists.
There was once a YouTube channel called “ViolentWomenAmongUs” that had some 1500 to 2000 news clippings of women perpetrating horrible deeds. It was taken down. Another has taken its place. I don’t know if it is the same person.
The channel, like this one, is soul-sickening and rage inducing in its variety, persistence and sheer mass. Here is a more recent example.
Whereas the previous channels are an important resource to help re-balance the notion that women are precious, special, victimized princesses incapable of anything than goodness and light, it wasn’t enough.
I was so affected by the channel’s content that I had decided to create my own channel: GoodMenAmongUs *
Where our society tells us that men are horrible, violent, abusive rapists, I felt the need to show the other side of that coin. The Good Men Amongst Us channel is designed as a soul-balm to those who feel that men are being treated as little more than the evil puppets of the patriarchy.
I only update it sporadically, as my mental state requires, or as I run into a fortunate example worthy of putting up on the channel. It isn’t enough to be negative, one must be positive.
I invite you to subscribe, to pass it along to those who you think might benefit from it, and to send video recommendations of the like via a private message on the channel.
* I am embarrassed to say that the channel should have been properly named goodmenamongsTus :)
It kills me when I hear conspiracies of “Men would not be ‘allowed’ fertility control methods.” In order to believe this one must believe 1. Men have no voice. 2. Men have no political power. 3. Men are not part of the market and 4. We must ask permission from “our betters” to grant us this boon. This is nonsense.
Are you a Man Going His Own Way? Or are you a vassal to those who claim to be your betters? You can’t have it both ways.
Vasalgel is coming along fine. Help fund it if you would like a one-procedure, effective, 10 year lasting, safe, discreet, non-hormonal and reversible method to control your fertility.
The only reason why men don’t yet have fertility control is because we’re a bunch of lazy bastards who aren’t willing to team up to support those making it possible.
I’ve heard the claims that “The Feminist Lobby is working against us.” Bullshit. The one source that people point to is the Brazilian Dr. Couthino, who merely made the claim that Feminists objected. I have no evidence that they’ve actually done anything other than flap their lips. Vasalgel could be ready in the US in under 5 years, and for the rest of the Western World? That depends on you. I’m doing what I can to make it available in Canada in as short a time as possible. What will you do to bring it to your country? You don’t need to do everything, just do something.
Guys. Send The Parsemus Foundation $10. Now. Sub to their email list. Help as you can.
The David and Lucile Packard foundation granted them $50 k. Very little compared to all of the costs.
Here is what you can do for the price of one sheet of paper, one envelope and one stamp. Write them a hand-written letter thanking them for their support of the Parsemus Foundation. Tell them why you want fertility control. Tell them how it will concretely make a better world by helping bring Vasalgel to market.
Read their mission statement, and write a letter that makes the connection between their accomplishing their mission and supporting The Parsemus Foundation in bringing Vasalgel to market.
Director, Population and Reproductive Health
The David & Lucile Packard Foundation
343 Second Street
Los Altos, CA 94022
Seriously. You can make a difference. You can create change. Take one hour to write a thoughtful and encouraging letter. Don’t get all conspiracy-hatred and fuck-the-wimmenz oriented. Praise them for their excellent deed, and make a direct connection between their positive action and making a better world for men, women and the children we choose to have.
Sandman, you’re a Toronto guy, I’m Canadian too. Use this platform that you’ve successfully built to make a difference, rather than merely freaking people out. I invite you to contact me to discuss the matter. Let’s talk via Skype or Google Hangouts, privately or publicly.
I’ve got more and more respect for Sage, not only as an activist, but as a speaker. He’s getting damned good.