Tag Archives: MRA

MGTOW vs MRA: Abandon all hopelessness

Another conversation I’ve had with a MGTOW.

tl;dr? Your comments are reflective of a very broad swath of men, whom I’d like to address indirectly as I speak with you. Much of your argument is typical of the kind that many MGTOW make: “I don’t know how it can be done, therefore it cannot.” This is an argument from lack of knowledge, and of hopelessness.

They then follow up with ” I will focus on what I can control: my life.” I do encourage men to take charge of their lives and to put themselves first.

At some point, however, one must measure when one’s life is stable and steady enough, to be willing to venture out of the comfort zones, even only if by small increments. My intent is not to convert you to an MRA, but to encourage you to replace hopelessness and helplessness with what MGTOW is really about: men living full rich lives as valuable and self-respecting men.

Forgive the length, the conversation is worth it. Wish we could do this via Hangouts. Interested? Contact me, and we’ll set it up.

“Having men speaking out doesn´t mean that laws will change. I have a hard time to see where things are getting better.”

You are right that discussion does not guarantee results, but no discussion certainly guarantees no results. Having women speak out didn’t mean that laws would change. But they have, haven’t they? I can provide you examples of where people speaking out has created change. I refer you to the Canadian Association for Equality, who have for the first time, since Earl Silverman, have create a shelter for abused men. That isn’t a law, but it’s a change. I could provide you with names of lawyers who actively specialize in men’s issues. That’s a next step. I can refer you Mike Buchanan who has started a political party in the UK based on men’s issues and is running for political positions. Step by step, all starting with talk. Give it time, we’ve only just begun, don’t write things off before we step off of the blocks.

“Instead we have the Yes-means-yes-law and some countries are introducing new laws where men can now get in trouble for flirting with a woman in public. Or airlines who require single traveling men not to sit next to young children.”

Yes, we have two groups, one, being a very-well funded massive power, and another simultaneously operating fledgling movement. Put one drop of red dye in a glass of water. The water is no longer 100% transparent. Add another drop. How long until we recognize that the water has a reddish hue? Remember that we are changing societies–plural. This is a generational task. We are doing this for our grand-children (and hopefully we’ll get to enjoy some of the results.)

“And what is that critical mass? 25%, 50%, 90%?”

That is excellent question–and one should be researched. How does one measure “critical mass?” That we do not know, at the time of this conversation, does not imply that it cannot be done. That would be an argument from lack of knowledge. I’m going to do some research on this for two reasons. 1. I want to know. 2. Knowing and being able to measure would allow us a concrete goal to strive for.

“I think there is more to it then rational thoughts. Biology and the urge of most men to care for women and to protect them at any cost is a huge factor as well.”

Oh yes. We are trying to change hearts and minds–in that order.

“I remember Cenk saying something like “Even if a woman hits you first, you don´t hit her back! That is just different!” And many men feel the same way.”

Yes, he’s entitled to hold very ignorant and thoughtless beliefs. Now, put him in a context with 1000 people who vociferously disagree and see how long he holds to that belief. Hearts and minds… Social pressure, psychology, emotion. It is all part of the equation.

Francis said: “This is very dense with assumptions.”

“I have talked to a large number of women about equality and feminism and while some of them might agree that feminism has taken things much too far, they often refuse to acknowledge that certain “facts” that are propagated by feminists are in fact just myths or flat out lies. Like the “gender wage gap” for example. You can produce statistics from official sources and those women will still claim that there is a gender wage gap and that women are “oppressed”. Again, this is not something rational in my opinion. It seems to be that those women instictively know that being the “victim” will benefit them and they won´t let go of it, no matter how many facts you present. They will constantly change the subject or end the discussion with the usual attacks: “You hate women! You have a problem with women! You are a sexist!” etc…”

Yes. And gravity exists. We do two things: use it, and find work-arounds. Ever ponder on how amazing suspended bridges are?

Francis said: “Cenk is not an enemy, he’s someone who doesn’t accept the argument…”

“Men like him will never change their behavior unless they have been burned badly themself. Sometimes not even then. At least that is my experience. There are some exceptions though…”

But we don’t know that for a fact. If we assume that this is so, as an irrefutable given, we aren’t likely to act on it, are we? Cenk is only one–and notice how many disagree with him. We don’t need 100% acceptance, we need critical mass. I can’t measure it yet, but I can see that it is growing.

Francis said: “MGTOW is not “the” solution, it is part of the solution.”

“I agree with you that MGTOW doesn´t provide a universal solution. But many MGTOW men probably don´t believe in a political solution (like myself). They just try to improve their life and stay safe. And that is a more practical approach then hoping or fighting for a political change, at least in my opinion. It is a solution for ME because it works for ME.”

Full disclosure, here: I am both an MRA and MGTOW. I was MGTOW before the term existed and only became MRA when I saw others doing it, and had an example to go by. MGTOW don’t believe in direct action. I get that, I didn’t for years either. You say “a more practical approach then hoping or fighting for a political change.”

Hoping and fighting for are two different things. The only reason that I was MGTOW and not MRA was because I thought “If I don’t know how it can be done, it can’t be.”

“I have nothing against the MRM, I just think it will not work.”

Two observations. The first is that you are looking at the MRM as though it is a singular static tool. It isn’t. The MRM is comprised of men and women, of all walks of life, of all psychological bents, of all skill, drive, talent and passion levels. The second is that you are again repeating “I can’t see it, so I don’t think it will work, therefore I will not invest in it.” That’s fair enough, and you are entitled to think that way–but it isn’t sound thinking, it is an argument from ignorance. You may not be one of those naturally proactive people, a mover-and-shaker by nature, neither am I, but I do not accept “I don’t know the solution, so I won’t try.” I’m not judging you for it, nor am I asking you to take action. I am asking you to think more deeply about your reasoning, even if it is only to stop thinking as someone who is oppressed.

“And one reason is because women have more leverage in our society. You can´t bargain with someone who is in a superior position. That´s the way I see it.”

Of course you can–if you have the right leverage. It might be financial, psychological, physical, etc. Sun Tzu is quoted as saying “Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win” and “To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy’s resistance without fighting.” You have already lost in your mind, and so retreat. Our “war” is not won though violence, but influence. Take one person, and help them change one idea. That’s your drop of dye in the water. The first battle, however, is against our sense of weakness, powerlessness and hopelessness.

“Thanks anyway for your comment. Even if we don´t agree with each other, I always enjoy having a civil and respectful discussion like that. And that is the reason I gave your comment a thumbs up, not because I agree with you.”

Imagine that: people having civil discourse and enjoying it! I encourage you to continue doing do. It makes us more effective and more fun to be listened to.

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MGTOW vs MRAs: Open your eyes.


A commenter in a thread said _”I sympathize with the MRM insofar as they fight for mens rights. I just think that they will not get very far.”_

Yet, all evidence is to the contrary. We have more men speaking out now than we ever have had before. The result is that we have more people acting on it.

_”And the reason are people like Cenk.”_

Not at all. People like Cenk are merely what the marketing industry would call “a late adopter.” Given critical mass, he, and those who hold his points of view will also change. This is how ideas get propagated in a very large mass of ideas. Changing public consciousness takes time, first because humans need time to change their ideas and second, because there are so many humans.

_”Most women are not willing to give men equal rights. (And this includes especially reproductive rights!)”_

This is very dense with assumptions. First, rights are not “given,” they are accepted then respected, then acted upon.  When we speak of rights, such as reproductive rights, for example, what we’re speaking of is legislation that leads to the enactment and enforcement of policy. There is a process to these things. The order is such: academic introduction and debate, public acceptance, political acceptance, legislation and encoding into policy, followed up the encoding and enforcement of policy at the local level (in the bureaucracy, then down to cops and social workers, for example.)

Once all of this is in play, there’s a number of years where the specifics have to be worked out in court to refine the issues via challenges and decisions.

_”And a large number of men are mens worst enemy. Cenk is the best example for that.”_

Cenk is not an enemy, he’s someone who doesn’t accept the argument, whether his arguments are good or bad (I think they’re atrocious.) That he is male or female has no bearing on the matter.

Where men _are_ “enemies” to each other is in day-by-day activities where men piss on each other, or fail to stand up for each other in a context. In a conversation at a party, at a job interview, by the cop who just goes with the flow or in a comment thread where people scream out “pussy beggar!”

MGTOW is not “the” solution, it is part of the solution. MGTOW simply remove support from the current system: they don’t feed the enemy, they deny the enemy resources. MRAs are the warriors on the field, sword and shield in hand against those who would harm us. MGTOW is more passive, but is valuable. A hungry, unsheltered opponent is a weaker opponent which makes the job easier for the warriors in the field.

It is time to stop thinking of each other as opposing armies and to think of ourselves as mutually supporting specialists.

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Victor Zen speaks on the State of the MHRM

Victor Zen gives an excellent presentation of the current state of the Men’s Human Rights Movement. This guy is half my age and I strive to be as well spoken as he his.

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